AH Challenge: Antonine Wall is maintiained as the Northern Border

How can the Romans maintain control of Southern Scotland below the Antonine Wall right up until the evacuation of the Island of Great Britain?
 
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How can the Romans maintain control of Southern Scotland below the Antonine Wall right up until the evacuation of the Island of Great Britain?

If they maintain control of southern Scotland and keep the Picts et. al. at bay, why should they need to evacuate GB anyway? I suggest that if they'd played their cards right, they could have shifted the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Londinium after 410 AD, and used Britain as a base for the conquest of the Atlantic and the eastern seaboard of the Americas and/or the reconquest of their old empire on continental Europe.

Now there's a couple of timelines for you...:)
 

Nikephoros

Banned
If they maintain control of southern Scotland and keep the Picts et. al. at bay, why should they need to evacuate GB anyway? I suggest that if they'd played their cards right, they could have shifted the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Londinium after 410 AD, and used Britain as a base for the conquest of the Atlantic and the eastern seaboard of the Americas and/or the reconquest of their old empire on continental Europe.

Now there's a couple of timelines for you...:)

Except it didn't happen like that. Britannia was abandoned because Constantine needed those two legions to seize the Imperial throne. Also, why would anyone make Londinium the capital? It isn't anywhere near the base of Roman power.
 
If they maintain control of southern Scotland and keep the Picts et. al. at bay, why should they need to evacuate GB anyway? I suggest that if they'd played their cards right, they could have shifted the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Londinium after 410 AD, and used Britain as a base for the conquest of the Atlantic and the eastern seaboard of the Americas and/or the reconquest of their old empire on continental Europe.

Now there's a couple of timelines for you...:)

Because it isn't worth it? The romans tried to pacify Scotland a few times, but it never worked in the long term, because it was too expensive and drew resources from other, more pressing concerns. The Romans maintained three legions in Britain (1 in York, 2 in Wales), as many as were deployed in all of northern africa, a far more vital region; that these resources were required to hold a relative backwater is telling, and would help decide britain's fate once those legions were needed elsewhere. And, during the later centuries, the british garrisons had a habit of mutinying in favor of their own claimant to the imperial throne, so weakening the forces there made more sense. Fact is, sooner or later the romans have to make some hard choices about where their soldiers go, and Britain is too isolated, to worthless (relative to the core imperial territories), and requires too much investment to hold.
 
Because it isn't worth it? The romans tried to pacify Scotland a few times, but it never worked in the long term, because it was too expensive and drew resources from other, more pressing concerns. The Romans maintained three legions in Britain (1 in York, 2 in Wales), as many as were deployed in all of northern africa, a far more vital region; that these resources were required to hold a relative backwater is telling, and would help decide britain's fate once those legions were needed elsewhere. And, during the later centuries, the british garrisons had a habit of mutinying in favor of their own claimant to the imperial throne, so weakening the forces there made more sense. Fact is, sooner or later the romans have to make some hard choices about where their soldiers go, and Britain is too isolated, to worthless (relative to the core imperial territories), and requires too much investment to hold.

Why Wales? The Irish?
 
Why Wales? The Irish?

To be perfectly honest, I'm not certain. Off the top of my head, my guess would be a mixture of Irish raiders across the Irish sea, and the task of holding down Wales.

Legions in Britain and their deployments:

York: IX Hispania, followed by VI Victrix
Caerleon: II Augusta
Deva (Chester): XX Valera Victrix

There was also another legion, the XIV Gemina, that participated in the conquest, but IIRC it was withdrawn, and never permanently stationed in Britain.

Orientation of these forces is to the North and West, with the legion in Deva seeming more dedicated to defending Wales and the northwest coast, but also able to assist the forces in the north.
 
It's widely thought that the strong military presence in the West of the island was due to the fact that people there were not happy with Roman rule for a long time. Basically, they stayed more tribal for longer and thus held potential for trouble that the locals in themore prosperous, urbanised parts lost. The North very likely looked similar. Holding down the extra territory would probably have needed extra troops most of all.

A good deposit of some metal might do the trick.
 
Perhaps if the Tyndrum alluvial gold deposits are found, and then after the Romans take over they start the more labour intensive mining.

Even if the mines only last 50 years, then this is long enough to thoroughly suppress the Picts. As it's likely the transport for this would be shipping along the West Coast, this could easily lead to the suppression of the Irish pirates by conquering the place.
 
It's widely thought that the strong military presence in the West of the island was due to the fact that people there were not happy with Roman rule for a long time. Basically, they stayed more tribal for longer and thus held potential for trouble that the locals in themore prosperous, urbanised parts lost. The North very likely looked similar. Holding down the extra territory would probably have needed extra troops most of all.
.

And when do you expect the North Welsh to stop? :p

Really strange though there'd be two legions there.
Even given the terrain of Wales being worse.

I always thought the main Roman concentration in Britain was at Hadrian's Wall and of course the important cities.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
If they maintain control of southern Scotland and keep the Picts et. al. at bay, why should they need to evacuate GB anyway? I suggest that if they'd played their cards right, they could have shifted the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Londinium after 410 AD, and used Britain as a base for the conquest of the Atlantic and the eastern seaboard of the Americas and/or the reconquest of their old empire on continental Europe.

Now there's a couple of timelines for you...:)

Bah! If you want to focus on the conquest of the Atlantic basin (not that the capital really needs to be anywhere near the Atlantic if you've got no rivals in the area), why would you choose a backwater like Londinium? :p

Surely a more likely capital would be the thriving Lusitanian port city of Olisipo, or Tingis in Africa?
 
And when do you expect the North Welsh to stop? :p

Really strange though there'd be two legions there.
Even given the terrain of Wales being worse.

I always thought the main Roman concentration in Britain was at Hadrian's Wall and of course the important cities.

Britain is a pretty small island even by Roman standards, and the forces in Chester were well enough pl,aced to operate in the north. Bearin mind these were legions, which meant they weren't supposed to fight barbarian incursions or pacify restive tribes. That was the job of auxiliaries. Legions were the main battle force designed for heavy lifting - face armies and besiege cities. Britain's legions were in place to stop either a full-scale invasion or a large uprising. For thatpurpose. legions always had to be placed some distance behind the frontier, inside the territory thery defended. It's the one at Caerleon that indicates Wales worried the Romans.

I don't have more recent figures, but Embleton (1979) writes that there are 6 cavalry alae (roughly 3000 horsemen), seven milliary cohorts, three of them equitatae (roughly 5000 foot and another 2000 horse), 11 quingenary equitate cohorts (guesstimate 3000 foot and 2000 horse) and 18 quingenary cohorts (9000 foot) recorded along the wall. Many of these are attested only from individual inscriptions, so that does not mean we have a permanent garrison of 7000 cavalry and 17,000 infantry, but even if you assume half of them in place at any one time, that's equal to about two legions in infantry alone.
 
For those with access to JSTOR, this paper has a breakdown of deployments in Northern England and references to deployments in Scotland and Wales.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
The OP's aim is best met by a political solution rather than a military one.

Reforming the Roman Empire stops it from decaying to the point that outlying forces feel they can take over with a couple of legions.
 
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