AH Challenge: American 'special relationship' with France

It's said that the USA has a 'special relationship' with Britain. We're very close long-term allies, closer than many other of the USA's allies. However, we've had a lot historic disagreements with Britain in the past( like two wars). France, on the other hand, helped us into our existence, and gave us the Statue of Liberty. With the latest POD possible, your challenge is to give the USA a special relationship with France, not Britian. Can it be done post World War II?
 
After the whole Vichy France thing? Not possible.

Maybe if France had instead fought on, gone into exile in Algeria and showed a great willingness to sacrifice its empire to liberate its own people. Then, perhaps, France and the United States could have that kind of relationship.
 
IMHO opinion, it is not based on politics.

You need French to be the common language of the USA and/or Francophones being a dominant immigrant-group in the USA.

Maybe there could be a possible POD in the outcome of the French&Indian War?
 
That's ASB with de Gaulle in power, though France will probably be worse off without him, both domestically and internationally.
 
IMHO opinion, it is not based on politics.

You need French to be the common language of the USA and/or Francophones being a dominant immigrant-group in the USA.

Maybe there could be a possible POD in the outcome of the French&Indian War?
Certainly, the fact that Britain and the US shared a common language helped. The fact that they shared common culture and legal base (Common Law) helped - the colonists were originally just trying to uphold their rights as ENGLISHMEN (specifically English, not British, which I find interesting) in the Revolution. (Or so they claimed:))

So, Britain really does have a headstart. However, with the ARW and War of 1812, they could have blown that advantage.

However.... I think a PoD might very well have to be ~1800 for France to actually hold the long and cherished relationship that Britain does.

If the common values were a democratic republicanism (Revolutionary France going less crazy), and both fighting against Britain in an alt-Napoleonic wars setting, I think one might be able to pull it off.
 
"It takes two, baby" - I would like to add.

A special partnership with the USA might need to completely re-calibrate the French political compass, at least post-1945. I am not sure how a special partnership with the USA and leading European Unification go together. That would be a real challenge as well.
 
Well, let's assume the POD happens during the French Revolution. The moderates (Girondists/constitutional monarchists) never lose power to the Jacobins, no Reign of Terror, maybe Louis XVI reconciles himself to the new order. With Lafayette - one of the American Revolution's great heroes - occupying a prominent position in the new government, American public opinion is favorable toward the new, more liberal French government, and that lays the foundation for a closer relationship later on.
 
Part of the animosity stems from Charles de Gaulle's tenure as head of state in France. He and FDR butted heads time and time again in WWII, to the point that Roosevelt begged Churchill to support someone else in leading the Free French after the occupation of France. Supposing this happens, and a less anti-American leader is in charge of France after the war and in the following years, it might be a possibility.
 
But then France won't be a power in the world. If de Gaulle isn't there, France has a strong possibility of succumbing to a military coup in '58. In any case, the 4th R. was too weak to even muddle through- there needed to be a strong leader with broad appeal, and no one other than le General fit the bill. I'll let the European specialists, specifically Hendryk, take over now. ;)
 
Can somebody explain, how and why De Gaulle was anti-American? I've always wondered. Preferably over a PM or a redirection to thread that has already been made on the subject to avoid thread-hijacking.
 
You would have to have a POD around the early 1800s for this. The US and UK have had unique relationship for a while. We were (and are) very close trade partners, as well as having a lot of cultural similarities. A POD leading to a more moderate French Revolution would be best IMO. joe84's scenario is best because it has a hero of the American Revolution leading France. This would lay the groundwork for a good future relationship. Fighting a joint war against Britain would help as well to seal the deal. Maybe the US joins in the French Revolutionary Wars to help fellow freedom fighters, as the propaganda will go. In North America, this will probably result in an early War of 1812, probably with much of the same results. In Europe, the war will probably end up in a draw and a status quo ante peace. This partnership could easily last until today, especially if US trade largely shifts from the UK to France after the Revolutionary Wars.
 
I bet a few Anglo-American Wars could do this, but that would need a POD in 1898 (for stuff line in They Call if Civilization).Is there nothing post WWII that could do it? What about a join US/French Vietnam War?
 
I have an implausible idea that I'm still working out in my head.

In a nutshell:

If the Samoa crisis wasn't bad enough, the Venezuelan Crisis was. After the noncompliance of Kaiser Wilhelm II to the ultimatum issued by Roosevelt, Roosevelt annihilated the Anglo-German armada. Portrayed as a declaration of war, Italy and Austria-Hungary declared war on the United States thereafter. (Spain may or may not get involved).
During the war, France and Russia (and possible some extent, the Ottoman Empire) became America's main trading partners in Europe.
The war ends with a European defeat (one major reason was a stalemate far into the interior of Canada's borders).
After the war, America and the Entente buddy up.

That's as far as I got so far.
 

Larrikin

Banned
Can somebody explain, how and why De Gaulle was anti-American? I've always wondered. Preferably over a PM or a redirection to thread that has already been made on the subject to avoid thread-hijacking.

De Gaulle wasn't anti-American to begin with, he was pro-French. He became anti-American when the US side lined his Free French and set up former Vichy officials as the French Govt after Torch.
 
My personal conclusion by now is that you need a string of Anglo vs American conflicts up to recent memory, i.e. at least the very late 19th century. And this only means shooting war, animosity and other conflicts like trade issues and so on should go on through out the 20th century.

The common traditions, heritage, language etc. between the States and Britain would otherwise prove too strong.

Of course, we would have a completely different timeline after the POD. For example, a different French Revolution changes EVERYTHING in Europe. We cannot go to a POD of such magnitude that far back and assume that there is a World War 1 or World War 2 centuries later.

P.S.
Also remember that economical links don't necessarily follow the lines of political alliances. These can have an influence and faciliate links which would be weaker otherwise - but if profit leads elsewhere, then the businessmen will follow to regions where political arch-enemies lie.
 
Spledid Isolation? I beg to differ...

Another idea came to me concerning butterflies - at what point will the United Kingdom stop to pursue its strategy of "splendid isolation"?

If there is a long established Franco-American alliance AND a tradition of Anglo-American hostilities, this would probably be the case as soon as the USA grow to become a major power, during the mid of the 19th century.

As Britain would need to take of the USA themselves, they would probably strongly pursue a strategy of keeping France isolated in Europe, similar to Bismarck's system 1871-1890. This could well mean a British-Prussian/German partnership.

Another question - how might the Franco-American alliance play out when the Northern/Southern-conflict has to be resolved?
 
This could probably be done without a massive amount of tinkering - get rid of de Gaulle, give Britain someone like Powell, and a France which was fully in the EEC and NATO, set against a Britain which was not in the first and probably apathetic about the second, would be a much more obvious first choice for the US in terms of European allies.

I don't think it would be as 'special' as the OTL one with Britain, but it would certainly be stronger than the one with that TLs Britain.
 
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