AH Challenge: Add Japan and Germany to the Security Council, AFTER WWII

Baskilisk

Banned
The current permanent security council of the UN is the USA, Russia, as the succesor to the USSR, the PRC as the successor to the RoP, France, and Britain. Replace France with Germany (united or not, but it has to be superior to France like it is nowadays), and add Japan to the council. Keep UK if you please, either way works.
PoD is...1948. So Japan and Germany definitaley lost WWII, and the Cold War is heating up.
So basically, make the "permanent" members not so permanent, maybe some process that has them reassigned over a certain amount of years?
New COuncil:
USA
USSR or Russia
PRC or ROP (unlikely)
UK
Germany
Japan

I think its safe to say those are the dominant powers in the world nowadays, with a heavier emphasis on the first three:D, especially the first :rolleyes:
 
The current permanent security council of the UN is the USA, Russia, as the succesor to the USSR, the PRC as the successor to the RoP, France, and Britain. Replace France with Germany (united or not, but it has to be superior to France like it is nowadays), and add Japan to the council. Keep UK if you please, either way works.
PoD is...1948. So Japan and Germany definitaley lost WWII, and the Cold War is heating up.
So basically, make the "permanent" members not so permanent, maybe some process that has them reassigned over a certain amount of years?
New COuncil:
USA
USSR or Russia
PRC or ROP (unlikely)
UK
Germany
Japan

I think its safe to say those are the dominant powers in the world nowadays, with a heavier emphasis on the first three:D, especially the first :rolleyes:
ASB, I'd think
Remember that 'permanent' members have vetos, and if you don't think France would veto its removal, you don't know France.

I'd think the only way to remove a member (especially France) would be to totally re-jig the Security Council. I could imagine a situation where France and the UK gave up their seats in favour of the EU in a major re-alignment that e.g. gave India a seat, possibly Brazil. In particular if the veto rules were redone some how (e.g. it takes TWO permanent members to veto something).

But swapping Germany for France!? No way.
 
I think you can easily swap China for Japan.

China was undergoing a civil war at the time of the making the the UN, so if the other four decide its not ready to have this important position, it will go to Japan to represent Asia. Korea is divided, India and Indochina are still colonies, the only one left is Japan. Japan's constitution would not have to war clause in it in this TL. Japan's atrocities were limited to Asia, so in the OTL, there was less hatred towards them in the West than towards Nazi Germany, so Japan getting this spot is possible.

Germany is ASB. It was divided for over 50 years after WWII, so its not happening.
 
Add 2 new seats instead

Including two new permanent seats would alternatively allow the composition to be maintained while also including Japan and Germany.
 
Baskilisk

Only thing I can think of is that the Cold War goes hot at some point. The Soviets are defeated after a bitter fight in which both Japan and Germany play important roles on the allied side. As such, when things are reformed they are both given seats on the Security Council by the grateful allies.

To get France off the only thing I can think of is that due to some fit of De Gaulle's or possibly a Socialist government in the 80's, the French stay neutral in the conflict. Russia keeps its security council seat because it is so important and the allies want good terms with the new post-communist government. France is not considered as important and the allies are really pissed off by its defection from NATO. It objects but is persuaded to accept the reforms which includes its removal from the security council as the political and economic consequences of doing so are going to be very bad. Still a bit ASB perhaps but might just fly.

Steve
 

Baskilisk

Banned
To the people that pointed out the obvious: thank you for your input. Duly noted:rolleyes:

If somehow you convinced France not to veto a resolution that would re-pick the council members based on wealth and influence, you may very well have Germany replace France. And this to happen after Germany is reunified, obviously, and after the cold war.
Silly me, I completely left India off the list:eek:. My mistake.
You'd end up with this council:
USA
PRC
Russia
India
Japan
Germany
UK (maybe).
Would the current council accept this? France would veto the hell out of it. I imaginge the UK wouldn't mind, they might think that India would be more pro-western, like Japan. Russia and China wouldn't like another western country, Japan in, but they might compromise in that India could potentially help keep the others in check.
Of course all have to realize by letting more permanent members, individual voting power is decreased, but some powers might want this. If it is changed to where you need two vetos, few things would probably change anyway.
To whoever mentioned De Gaulle: I'm sure he'd roll over in his grave if he heard that France was replaced in the council. And maybe he'd make his own zombie UN, banning the USA from joining.
 

Baskilisk

Banned
Including two new permanent seats would alternatively allow the composition to be maintained while also including Japan and Germany.
This was my other thought. Although i doubt that India would be happy that they weren't included while yet another white country was added.
China and Russia would certainly block this move as it would just add more weight against them.
 
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