AH Challenge: Achaemenid Persia Conquers Carthage

The Challenge, shall you choose to accept it, is to have the Persian Empire conquer the Carthaganians.
 
They need to conquer Greece first. If not where will the ships come from since the Phonecians refused to supply them to use against their kindred when I think Darius wanted to conquer Carthage, or was it Xerxes?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I guess the Persians were swimming during the Battle of Salamis. Maybe that is why the lost.
Actually, the ships were contributed primarily by the Phoenician city states, with the Ionians, the Cypriots, and the Cilicians providing support. The Persians had no nautical tradition at this point in their history, being just a few generations removed from being nomads on horseback.
 
Can't they just march across from Egypt? Carthage seems a bit vulnerable to a land attack. Not sure what would cause the Persians to want to, though. But the idea seems interesting.
 
Can't they just march across from Egypt? Carthage seems a bit vulnerable to a land attack. Not sure what would cause the Persians to want to, though. But the idea seems interesting.

That might be an interesting scenario. The only reason I can think for it not working would be terrain and climate, but the only reason that comes to mind is because of the story involving a Persian army being swallowed by a sandstorm.
 
In the hypothetical of Persia not having anybody to turn to, they could build a fleet in any of their provinces next to the sea, and have Persians build it. The Spartans built their own fleet in the Peloponesian Wars, after all.
 
In the hypothetical of Persia not having anybody to turn to, they could build a fleet in any of their provinces next to the sea, and have Persians build it. The Spartans built their own fleet in the Peloponesian Wars, after all.

No they did not. Their League allies who had a maritime tradition built and rowed their fleet.
 
Can't they just march across from Egypt? Carthage seems a bit vulnerable to a land attack. Not sure what would cause the Persians to want to, though. But the idea seems interesting.

I agree with Caesar's post. The terrain is very harsh and the army would need to be supplied by sea. No fleet = no supplies = no army on the march.
 
The Romans didn't have much of a maritime tradition before they copied the Carthaginian ship designs. So perhaps the Persians could have done it. I've heard references to using Egyptian ships on occasion.

If they conquered Carthage, they would have even more Phoenician naval expertise than they did before, as well as access to trade routes as far afield as Britain. Could the Mediterranean become, for a time, a Persian lake?
 
I think it's more likely that they'd subcontract it out to the Ionians, if the Phoenicians aren't willing to get involved with Carthage.

This could work but it would have to be at a time when the Ionians were available. That is they are not in revolt, liberated, required to police the Aegean against the Athenians or employed in some other project by the Persians. A fairly small window of opportunity perhaps.


A further complication could be if the Phonecians decide to abandon their cities and sail west to join their kin and form a naval alliance against the Ionians.
 
The Romans didn't have much of a maritime tradition before they copied the Carthaginian ship designs. So perhaps the Persians could have done it. I've heard references to using Egyptian ships on occasion.

If they conquered Carthage, they would have even more Phoenician naval expertise than they did before, as well as access to trade routes as far afield as Britain. Could the Mediterranean become, for a time, a Persian lake?

The Roman ships you refer to were built in cities like Capua and by Greek shipbuilders and were manned by sailors not Roman peasants with no maritime tradition.

Egyptian ships were certainly used by the Persians and the sources all agree they were inferior in both quality and quantity to the other naval units under Persian command.
 
IMO the bottom line here is that Persia would have to push west through Greece to get to Carthage. IF Persia could conquer Greece, then they'd have a naval conflict with Carthage on their hands.

A brief sideline:

The First Punic War was primarily a naval war. Rome bested Carthage by 1) Copying Carthaginian building style 2) Employing Greek rowers from Italy 3) By using the corvus to turn sea battles into land battles (at which the Romans excelled). It seems the corvus wasn't used in the later stages of the war in part because it made Roman ships too top heavy to handle rough waters, but by the time the Romans stopped using it, Carthage had surprisingly beached its fleet and focused on conquering African territory. When Carthage had to mount a rescue mission to Sicily it lacked enough experienced rowers to pull it off, and the Romans were now seaworthy enough to take them on.

I question whether the Persians, even with the help of Greek rowers, would have been able to decisively defeat the Carthaginian navy without all the advantages enjoyed by the Romans.:cool:
 
A further complication could be if the Phonecians decide to abandon their cities and sail west to join their kin and form a naval alliance against the Ionians.

That's quite a move there. There's a bit of a gap between not wanting to help attack your distant relatives on the other side of the Mediterrean, and deciding to uproot your entire lives en masse.
 
That's quite a move there. There's a bit of a gap between not wanting to help attack your distant relatives on the other side of the Mediterrean, and deciding to uproot your entire lives en masse.

That is exactly what happened when Carthage was founded. The debate was whether the whole population of Phonecia should just sail west. In the end a select group was sent and Carthage was the result.

Athens debated the same thing when confronted by the Persians but decided to stay, fought and won at Salamis and the rest is, as they say, history.
 
I'm with those who've already stated that Greece needs to be conquered before an attack on Carthage could be made. I don' think it matter whether its the first (Marathon) or second attempt (the Hot Gates).

If the Persians win in the second attempt, and many of the Greeks flee west, to Sicily and Southern Italy, then the balance of power in the western med is going to change. The Carthagians are suddenly facing a much stronger Greek presence, one that is probably also going to cause some pretty major political changes in the Italian and Sicilian Greek city-states.

So instead of Rome uniting Italy and then facing off against Carthage, the Greek refugees come to Italy, and with the shared experience of the "Long Trek" (or whatever you want to name it) unite the Italian and Sicilian Greek City-states into a new federation, one which adds the greekophile city-states of central Italy as allies (this includes Rome). Control of Sicily is a major issue for both Carthage and the Greeks, and war soon ensues.

In the ensuing face off between Carthage and the (Hesperian?) Greeks the Persians would definitely be interested in getting involved. Since the Greeks are probably being a REALLY big pain in the side of the Persian Empire (I'm thinking constant support to remaining Greeks in rebellions, state-sponsored 'piracy' in support of the rebellions), the Persians could offer some help to Carthage, of what kind I'm not entirely sure. I would imagine that it would be in form of at least a naval variety, so the Carthagians get support from their Punic cousins in the Old Country.

The struggle between the Greeks and Carthagians ends up as the death struggle that it was between Rome and Carthage. In the end the Greeks are able to overcome the Carthagians, in the process adding Spain and Sicily to its dominions. The Sack of Carthage after the Second Punic War ends the Carthagians presence in the West as an independent people.

In the process of winning against the Carthagians the Greeks would have gained enough strength to really challenge the Persians. The Greeks liberate Greece, and land troops in Egypt in support of a local rebellion there. The decaying Persian Empire is soon in retreat, pushed behind the Zagros Mnts. before the Greeks finally stop.
 
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