AH challenge a survivng Russian Monarchy

archaeogeek

Banned
After 1908, it's increasingly impossible to do it without the Tsar turning Russia into even more of a dictatorship. The best that can be hoped for is a constitutional monarch with a lopsided electorate. Nicolas II will only agree to it under catastrophic circumstances. In terms of mentality, his diary gives us lines like "I had some workers shot" to describe the 1908 demonstrations (I'm not sure how they translate exactly but they tend to be of that kind).

Wait, no, that happened IOTL and it fell in three months.
 
After 1908, it's increasingly impossible to do it without the Tsar turning Russia into even more of a dictatorship. The best that can be hoped for is a constitutional monarch with a lopsided electorate. Nicolas II will only agree to it under catastrophic circumstances. In terms of mentality, his diary gives us lines like "I had some workers shot" to describe the 1908
demonstrations (I'm not sure how they translate exactly but they tend to be of that kind).

Wait, no, that happened IOTL and it fell in three months.




So the Monarchy could Survive if Nicolas was smart, What I think is his best bet is to Sue for peace with Germany, so the war end, Then have the Russian army under his command head back for Moscow, Penin would never go to Russia, so no rise of Bolsheviks and so when Protests appear he simply orders the army to invade and soon with over a million soldiers he shoots down opposition and if all else fails he flees to The U.K or The U.S with the whole Russian state treasury and lives a happy life ever after so when Russia tears itself apart he makes a grand entrance showing how before the war Russia was united but now it lay I'm ruins and promises changes and rights we could see a surviving monarchy what do you think?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The soldiers will side with the protestors (as they did IOTL; Lenin didn't somehow magically take over the whole of Russia). That's even more stupid than what Nicolas II did OTL. If he starts shooting the opposition again, the monarchy has less than a year to live. And if he leaves with the whole state treasury, he won't die a happy man, he will die miserably, a tracked man, in a gutter, with a knife in the back. Not only will he not deserve to be a happy man, but the ones who take over russia after his running away will make absolutely sure of it.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Whites win the Russian Civil War, the monarchy is restored but is reduced to the role of a constitutional one that has little to no power.
 
The soldiers will side with the protestors (as they did IOTL; Lenin didn't somehow magically take over the whole of Russia). That's even more stupid than what Nicolas II did OTL. If he starts shooting the opposition again, the monarchy has less than a year to live. And if he leaves with the whole state treasury, he won't die a happy man, he will die miserably, a tracked man, in a gutter, with a knife in the back. Not only will he not deserve to be a happy man, but the ones who take over russia after his running away will make absolutely sure of it.

so either way Russia is Screwed cause if all there money is taken what will help the economy survive and I'm sure that even though Nicolas dies Russia will be completly screwed up,.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
so either way Russia is Screwed cause if all there money is taken what will help the economy survive and I'm sure that even though Nicolas dies Russia will be completly screwed up,.

It's screwed even if he survives and stays on the throne, the Autocrat of all Russias was a terrible ruler with little to no sense of economics, and a conservative streak that would make Bismarck look like a raging liberal and Franco proud. His actions were well on the way to causing a revolution, war or not. None of the parties that could really help the country without bloodshed were poised to win in a shooting match, especially not when the people were getting increasingly socialist: he wasn't shot by Lenin, he was shot by the Yekaterinenburg workers: for the Bolshevik leadership, the reaction in private was a huge "oh shit". And the only party that really fervently believed in the possibility of a constitutional parliamentary monarchy was proposing a system where the aristocratic vote was worth on paper easily ten times the popular vote.

A constitutional monarchy, without revolution, with a 1915 POD, is borderline ASB; ASB either killing or mindwiping Nicolas II in that case.
 
Alexander II is able to overcome the nobles against him, and passes the constitution as he planned.

Alternatively, Alexander II is not killed and rules for a fairly long time. Alexander III, wanting to follow in his father's semi-liberal footsteps, uses his dictatorial personality (ironically) to force through his father's constitution.

It's not impossible, you just have to take advantage of the right moment in history.

EDIT: This would effectively reduce the Tsar to the status of the King/Queen of the UK, but he technically would have state powers.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Not even a tiny bit, like That King of Spain.....:(
Are you kidding? The Russians knew firsthand what autocracy wielded by a house as idiotic and delusional as the Romanovs led to. No, no, the Russians are going to make sure that the Tsar stays a figurehead and that is it.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Alexander III, wanting to follow in his father's semi-liberal footsteps, uses his dictatorial personality (ironically) to force through his father's constitution.
Then that means you gotta get rid of this guy. He's in large part to blame for Alexander's reactionary beliefs.
 
Then that means you gotta get rid of this guy. He's in large part to blame for Alexander's reactionary beliefs.

No disagreement. However, Alexander III, if more influenced by Alexander II's beliefs, would be tempted to, at best, ignore him and, at worst, "disappear" him in order to implement his father's plans. The Tsar would still have that kind of power until the changes came into effect.
 
Whites win the Russian Civil War, the monarchy is restored but is reduced to the role of a constitutional one that has little to no power.

Bah, in this case there really is no ''Russia'', at least in terms of a proper goverment. It'll look like China during the warlord era or worse.

There are very good reasons the ''whites'' didnt win the civil war. In fact calling that gang of backstabbing rivil warlords a ''movement'' on par with the redss is giving them way too much credit. They only lasted a couple of years due to massive outside support.

To save the Tsardom a POD before the Russio-Japanese War would be best. Maybe killing off stuipd Nicky would help too. Any of his male relatives, would make a better Tsar than he did. Also since Russian leaders had a habit of getting killed off by random assassins and accidents. Getting rid of him is easy, just have one of those assassination attemts succeed.
 
If you mean the monarchy survives in exile, its possible that one or more of Princesses or the Czaravitch himself survives. they might have been brought to England by the RN after the fall of the Czar either by the Czar sending them there or being rescured by the allies.
They would then be in the gunsites of the communist afterwords much like Trotsky was.
 
Well.... damm that defeats the whole purpose if Nicky was that bad, then I see it impossible reason I did not ask about other Monarchs is cause I'm already doing such a TL on which Nicky dies, and Alexander and the Royal family in the train crash of 1866 but young Michael Romanov survives, so that defeats the whole point........:( Man I do feel srry for Russia they got stuck with such am inept ruler that it led to revoulution and the Russia of today, which is no better of than Stalin, poor Russia:(:(
 

Wolfpaw

Banned

You ought not to be so dismissive of the Whites. Here are two cross-posts from some threads earlier this year where we talked about what a White victory scenario would look like r.e. Russia:

Wolfpaw said:
In October of 1919, Denikin was launching his offensive on Moscow. While the Whites were not what one would necessarily call "unified," they were far from the splintered warlords they would become in 1920 and for the remainder of the war.

Wrangel had fairly solid control over the majority of White forces in Southern Russia/the Ukraine since his spat with Denikin hadn't yet flared up (it was by and large caused by the decisive failure of the Moscow campaign), and the same goes for Yudenich in the Baltics and Kolchak in Siberia. In fact, up until 1920, Kolchak was still officially regarded by Denikin, Wrangel, and Yudenich as the legitimate Commander-in-Chief of all White forces.

If Denikin is not betrayed by Makhno while he's en route to Moscow, or if he just decides not to send six regiments back to fight Makhno (which they never wound up doing, the anarchists basically having just pulled an ineffectual hit-and-run on Denikin's supply lines before the reinforcements could do anything about it), Denikin would most likely have defeated the Bolsheviks at the Battle of Oryol.

A White victory at Oryol means that the Bolsheviks are going to reconsider the forces they sent to beef-up Petrograd (which they had previously thought of abandoning and were only dissuaded by Trotsky ignoring their opinions and sending them anyways) and call them back to the capital. This means that Petrograd will fall to Yudenich and, even if the Red forces make it back in time, Moscow will probably fall to Denikin.

We should remember that in OTL, the Whites only really started to come undone after 1919 (corruption, drug abuse, arms-dealing, black marketeering, etc. were already endemic to the Whites, but not yet cripplingly so). The winter of 1919 is when Yudenich bowed out, basically leaving Whites in the Baltics and northwestern Russia without a leader. It's also the year that Denikin and Wrangel started fighting over what to do with their forces, a fight that would lead to Wrangel's resignation (and later brief re-installment) and Denikin and his cronies-cum-warlords grabbing land, wantonly looting, alienating Ukrainians with cultural chauvinism, and basically reversing all of the progress that the reform-minded Wrangel had initiated, thereby losing the support of most of the peasantry. And Kolchak? Well, he just got more and more autocratic when he realized he was the Whites' last chance at achieving anything.

So there we have it. A White victory complete with all of the delicious butterflies that come with them still having refused to recognize Finnish and Polish independence.
Wolfpaw said:
The Whites win in late-1919-early 1920, something that is very, very plausible. A junta is established between Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, and Yudenich. It is decided that Wrangel becomes head of government (probably alongside Milyukov and Pepelyayev) while Denikin and Yudenich are put in charge of the military. Kolchak becomes an élément grise in Russian politics, sort of like a Hindenburg-Ludendorff mix; a figure given deference who sort of stays behind the scenes but is the man to call when "decisive measures" must be taken to reestablish "order."

Meanwhile, the near-universally beloved Grand Duke Nikolai becomes Tsar, though this time he is a constitutional monarch with negligible power at best. This not only satisfies traditionalists and democrats, but also provides the nation with an untainted figurehead that pretty much everybody can rally around.

After an ill-fated Russian experiment with parliamentary democracy (à la pre-fascist Italy;
a theoretical liberal constitution ridden with institutional problems, a still-stratified society, instability, economic uncertainty, a political army.), Kolchak (at the urging of Grand Duke Cyril who ascends the throne in 1929) finally steps in to reestablish "law and order" and becomes the de facto dictator of Russia. People who present a threat to his new order like Denikin and Kutepov and much of the Army high-command will probably be purged.

Kolchak probably dies some time in the '30s. During and after his reign, movements like Aleksandr Kazem-Bek's Mladorossi gains momentum with its unique and popular (and typically fascist) slogans promoting both industrialization/modernization and traditionalism. Mladorossi or something with a similar name but in the same mold becomes the major (and eventually only) political party in Russia.

The charismatic and handsome Kazem-Bek becomes dictator after Kolchak kicks the bucket. How long his rule lasts is debatable due to his being of Azeri stock, but the major point is that his general philosophy (Tsar and the Soviets!) becomes the norm. His most likely successor is Anastasy Vonsyatsky (who may not be bigoted enough), maybe Konstantin Rodzayevsky.

Ethnicities that will most likely be targeted under the Whites (and I'm assuming we have pre-WWII Soviet borders here) are Jews (of course), Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians (i.e. people who regard themselves as "Ukrainians" rather than "Little Russians"), Volga Germans, Crimean Karaites, possibly Chinese, perhaps Finns, and maybe Azeris depending on if and how far Kazem-Bek falls. Obviously homosexuals and non-Orthodox will be persecuted, the only exception being Muslims. Also expect a great deal of anti-Western sentiment.

Caucasians and Central Asian tribesmen like Kazakhs and Kalmyks and Buryats and Turkmen will in all likelihood not be targeted for two main reasons; the anti-Bolshevism that the majority of these groups displayed, and the distinct lack of general anti-Russian sentiment amongst them. In fact, the tribesmen will probably join the Cossacks in the pantheon of "martial races" (excellent theory, RGB). Again, the fate of Azeris largely depends on the success or failure of Kazem-Bek.

Interestingly, the concept of "sophisticated secret policemen vs. partisan street thugs" like we see exemplified in the rivalry between the SS and SA already existed in Imperial Russia. The "sophisticated" aspect—the Okhrana—will be reestablished, expanded, and revitalized under the leadership of people like Mikhail Diterikhs. The "street thug" element will lie in the resurrected Yellow Shirts under the command of somebody like Lev Okhotin or Gen. Vladimir Kozmin.

Another thing of note is the viability of Konstantin Rodzayevsky as the successor to basically any post. Head of the Okhrana, head of the Yellow Shirts, even Vozhd (or whatever the head honcho spot is called); Rodzayevsk could potentially succeed to any one (or perhaps even two) of these positions.

Basically, the regime we get is a cross between Iron Guard Romania and Francoist Spain alongside some major elements of clerical fascism.


Assuming that the Whites' borders are the same as OTL's pre-War Soviet Union, there will be lots and lots and lots of revanchist and imperialistic aims aimed at Poland, the Baltic States, and Finland. We also shouldn't discount potential adventures in Asia led by folks like Ungern fon Shternberg (if he's still around) or Semyonov.
This is a far cry from the disjointed warlordism which you think would automatically arise from a White victory.

That being said, the later the White victory, the more likely warlordism will be.
 
Well.... damm that defeats the whole purpose if Nicky was that bad, then I see it impossible reason I did not ask about other Monarchs is cause I'm already doing such a TL on which Nicky dies, and Alexander and the Royal family in the train crash of 1866 but young Michael Romanov survives, so that defeats the whole point........:( Man I do feel srry for Russia they got stuck with such am inept ruler that it led to revoulution and the Russia of today, which is no better of than Stalin, poor Russia:(:(

Without the revoulution Russia could wind up worse than OTL, you can never tell and today’s Russia isn’t Stalinist. Putin is if anything much more like Mussolini than any of the other big 20th century dictators, right down to his habit of going shirtless.:D

You can have a TL where Nicky lives but he cant go on the way he did OTL, Have Russia win the Russio-Japanise War. That gives his popular support a major boost. Also make sure more competent people become ministers. Many states can ''autopilot'' their way through the rule of an inept leader if it has a little luck and a good civil service.
 
Without the revoulution Russia could wind up worse than OTL, you can never tell and today’s Russia isn’t Stalinist. Putin is if anything much more like Mussolini than any of the other big 20th century dictators, right down to his habit of going shirtless.:D

You can have a TL where Nicky lives but he cant go on the way he did OTL, Have Russia win the Russio-Japanise War. That gives his popular support a major boost. Also make sure more competent people become ministers. Many states can ''autopilot'' their way through the rule of an inept leader if it has a little luck and a good civil service.

Ty I was under the impression Russia is now filled with drugs, Alchol, trafficking and the such, no?
 
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