AH Challenge: A Protestant France

Philip

Donor
Henry of Navarre decides that Paris in fact is not worth a mass.

He wins the War of the Three Henrys and then defeats the pretender Charles X. If he can survive the numerous assassination attempts, he could become Elizabeth I's French protege.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Henry of Navarre decides that Paris in fact is not worth a mass.

He wins the War of the Three Henrys and then defeats the pretender Charles X. If he can survive the numerous assassination attempts, he could become Elizabeth I's French protege.
Where would things go from there?
 

Philip

Donor
Off the top of my head I see two major possibilities:


  1. Henry is a successful monarch and his succession is not clouded. This could lead to a stable Protestant French kingdom with a sizeable, but tolerated, Catholic minority. She is likely to be closer to England at least until the other religious wars in Europe play out. Conflict with Spain will be increased. Perhaps France gets the Low Countries during the *Eighty Years' War. The German Protestants are also likely to look to France for help -- France becomes involved in the *Thirty Years' War earlier and more openly.
  2. Henry is less successful, or his succession is in doubt. Civil war returns to France. Protestant Forces (England, France, Low Countries, German Protestant Union, Scandinavian Countries? Swiss?) battle Catholic Forces (Spain, French Catholics, German Catholic League, some Italian States) across France. The outcome is uncertain, except that France is ruined for the next few generations.
 
What is interesting is I instantly liked the second option not the first. I mean open civil war totally messing up a country that dominated europe until 1789 seems to open up the most interesting options. Firstly because France is such a valuable target both Catholics and Protestants will likely destroy themselves over that war. It would most likely extend well into OTL 30 years war. This would set back the development of France but not destroy it, while The Spanish would also be generally weakened by this because they would not be able to afford two back two back epic conflicts. While England might be drug into an active position in the 30 years war.
 

Philip

Donor
What is interesting is I instantly liked the second option not the first. I mean open civil war totally messing up a country that dominated europe until 1789 seems to open up the most interesting options.

I was thinking the same thing. The first option might be a nice start to a Frankowank, but the possibilities of the second are too intriguing to pass up.

Some questions:

  1. Does France survive as a single state, or does it split along religious lines?
  2. Is there increased French migration to the New World?
  3. Who replaces France as the dominant Continental power? Austrian Habsburgs?
  4. Does one of the German states gain unexpected prestige through its actions in the war?
 
Make France a protestant Kingdom before 1648. Preferably Huguenott. No foreign invasions allowed.

One way could be that the Concordat of Bologna never comes to be. The following is from the textbook to my Western Civilization class:

A History of Western Society (9th ed.) said:
In 1438 Charles [VII] published the Pragmatic Sanction of Bourges, asserting the superiority of a general council over the papacy, giving the French crown major control over the appointment of bishops, and depriving the pope of French ecclesiastical revenues. The Pragmatic Sanction established Gallican (or French) liberties because it affirmed the special rights of the French crown over the French church. Greater control over the church...helped consolidate the authority of the French crown...
...the French king Francis I and Pope Leo X reached a mutually satisfactory agreement in 1516. The new treaty, the Concordat of Bologna, rescinded the Pragmatic Sanction's assertion of the superiority of a general council over the papacy and approved the pope's right to receive the first year's income of new bishops and abbots. In return, Leo X recognized the French ruler's right to select French bishops and abbots. French kings thereafter effectively controlled the appointment and thus the policies of church officials in the kingdom...
...This understanding gave the monarchy a rich supplement of money and offices and a power over the church that lasted until the Revolution of 1789. The Concordat of Bologna helps explain why France did not later become Protestant: in effect, it established Catholicism as the state religion. Because French rulers possessed control over appointments and had a vested financial interest in Catholicism, they had no need to revolt against Rome.

Basically, if no agreement is reached between French kings and the papacy, then relations between France and the Vatican would be pretty tense. Even if the Pragmatic Sanction were rescinded (but without a compromise) then, down the line, a French king may try to 'get back' the power that Francis I had. Harnessing the anti-Rome feelings that flared during the Reformation, he could pull a Henry VIII and form the Gallican Church.
 
I was thinking the same thing. The first option might be a nice start to a Frankowank, but the possibilities of the second are too intriguing to pass up.

Some questions:

  1. Does France survive as a single state, or does it split along religious lines?
  2. Is there increased French migration to the New World?
  3. Who replaces France as the dominant Continental power? Austrian Habsburgs?
  4. Does one of the German states gain unexpected prestige through its actions in the war?

Why would the fact that their protestants make France do better?
 
Well I know for one that a lot of Huguenots ended up in Prussia, and helped fuel the rise of the Prussian Empire.
 

Philip

Donor
Why would the fact that their protestants make France do better?

I don't recall stating that being Protestant would necessarily 'make France do better'.

However, if you refer to my first post in the thread, you will see that I suggested that a stable, Protestant France might be able to gain control of the Spanish Netherlands (and maybe the United Provinces) along considerable influence over the Protestant German states. Such developments would greatly help France's situation while weakening her two chief rivals on the Continent. When we combine that with Justin's comment below it should be obvious how France could do better in this scenario.

Further, I suggested in the other option that Protestant France could fare much worse. The key difference was stability.

Well I know for one that a lot of Huguenots ended up in Prussia, and helped fuel the rise of the Prussian Empire.

Indeed. If France is a stable Protestant country, those Huguenots stay home. Further, the *Thirty Years' War could result in many German Protestants heading for France. Not only does France not have her talent pool lowered, she may benefit from immigration.
 
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