AH Challenge: A more liberal, less Christian black populace

Michael E Johnson · Jan 13, 2004

Under what circumstances could the US black population 2004 be more liberal (socially and politically) and less Christian than it is today?Also make the existing conservative elements in black society be dominated by Islam rather than Christianity. Possible-pods-Christianity is never allowed to take root in the slave society due to whites deciding Christianity would remain white , or its rejected en masse as a slave religion that had betrayed them once blacks acheive freedom and a large scale Communist/Socialist movement among blacks in the 20th century.The society I'm looking for is 1 where Malcolm X is the ideal black leader rather than MLK.The majority of the white population of the United States has never embraced blacks as fellow Christains or Americans who were trying to emulate and fit into their practices and society,how would it do with a black populace that was massively different? Would there be a black populace in 2004 ? Any and all ideas appreciated.

Beck Reilly · Jan 13, 2004

Isn't the black population already liberal? They always vote Democrat...

David Howery · Jan 14, 2004

wow. Let's have the blacks not only a different race but also a different religion from most whites and in a political party who's central theme is destruction of the capitalist west. Massive racial strife all around. Let's be very very glad this never happened....

zoomar · Jan 14, 2004

David Howery said:
wow. Let's have the blacks not only a different race but also a different religion from most whites and in a political party who's central theme is destruction of the capitalist west. Massive racial strife all around. Let's be very very glad this never happened....

I agree completely. What a dystopian vision, unless of course you want violent revolution and horrible repression.

Grey Wolf · Jan 14, 2004

Dynamics

If they had not been allowed to become Christian as slaves, would not the majority religion have been some kind of animalism, perhaps similar to the Voodooism that grew up on Haiti ? If so, perhaps Haiti could be seen as indicative of how things might develop societally ?

I guess the major turning point in this timeline comes with emancipation - would the abolitionists have been so powerful if the slaves had been seen as more primitive and more requiring of white man's guidance ? Would the American Civil War have been so conclusive if in making an Emancipation Proclamation Lincoln could be looked at as doing something similar to declaring all Indians to be US Citizens ?

Grey Wolf

Michael E Johnson said:
Under what circumstances could the US black population 2004 be more liberal (socially and politically) and less Christian than it is today?Also make the existing conservative elements in black society be dominated by Islam rather than Christianity. Possible-pods-Christianity is never allowed to take root in the slave society due to whites deciding Christianity would remain white , or its rejected en masse as a slave religion that had betrayed them once blacks acheive freedom and a large scale Communist/Socialist movement among blacks in the 20th century.The society I'm looking for is 1 where Malcolm X is the ideal black leader rather than MLK.The majority of the white population of the United States has never embraced blacks as fellow Christains or Americans who were trying to emulate and fit into their practices and society,how would it do with a black populace that was massively different? Would there be a black populace in 2004 ? Any and all ideas appreciated.

David S Poepoe · Jan 14, 2004

"Possible-pods-Christianity is never allowed to take root in the slave society due to whites deciding Christianity would remain white"

Virtually impossible to do due to parts of Scripture itself and the belief of spreading the Word. In would contradict that concept of trying to save an individual's soul. As implied by Grey Wolf, but thinking more along the lines of Brazil, a hybrid Christianity may develop. A portion of Christianity and a portion of African mythology and religion. A similar religion developed in Latin America, but for the life of me I can't recall the name.

Guilherme Loureiro · Jan 14, 2004

David S Poepoe said:
"Possible-pods-Christianity is never allowed to take root in the slave society due to whites deciding Christianity would remain white"

Virtually impossible to do due to parts of Scripture itself and the belief of spreading the Word. In would contradict that concept of trying to save an individual's soul. As implied by Grey Wolf, but thinking more along the lines of Brazil, a hybrid Christianity may develop. A portion of Christianity and a portion of African mythology and religion. A similar religion developed in Latin America, but for the life of me I can't recall the name.

You mean Umbanda. However, it tends to be marginalized and viewed as cult. Atitudes have mellowed out, but there are still people who look askance at umbandistas(especially hard-core Catholics, although I suppose the Pentecostal Christians don't like umbandistas as well).

Michael E Johnson · Jan 14, 2004

--Isn't the black population already liberal? They always vote Democrat-- Which is a continuing sign of a belief in Republican racism (since the 19060's)not black liberalism.Upwards of 80-90 % of African-Americans are Christian and of them around 40 %-50% have what could be considered conservative views-(socially but some even economically) yet these individuals still vote Democrat year after year.Must be the corrupting influence of the black politcal leadership again.

Michael E Johnson · Jan 14, 2004

--I agree completely. What a dystopian vision, unless of course you want violent revolution and horrible repression--- So you mean something like what African-Americans have already experienced in the United States OTL? I guess 1 difference is that most whites would feel even less responsible or guilty for their benefiting from atrocities-if thats possible.

Xen · Jan 14, 2004

So you mean something like what African-Americans have already experienced in the United States OTL? I guess 1 difference is that most whites would feel even less responsible or guilty for their benefiting from atrocities-if thats possible.

No hes referring to something much more worse than what happened in OTL, perhaps even genocide. With the largest minority in the country having socialistic tendencies, a different religion, it would be alot harder for individuals to embrace them as equals. We could see the United States swing to become a near facist nation with the black population being to America what the Jews were to Nazi Germany. The world could turn dark and ugly with a facist United States allied with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Blacks here might not have it great, but it could be worse, alot worse.

Straha · Jan 14, 2004

an easier way to get at least the more liberal part of the TL is to have a secular version of otl's MLK. without religion beign an important part of civil rights movement we see blacks developing more liberal/libertarian politics. and just becuase this thread gave me an idea i'm going to repost an immigration restriction TL i posted on the old forum that lead to blacks being more socially advcanced than OTL....

David Howery · Jan 15, 2004

Aren't the goals of having blacks be both marxist and islamic rather exclusive? Marxism takes a dim view of any religion... I think we'd have to pick one or the other.
Malcolm X... I admit I know little of him other than his radical reputation. What exactly did he want to see happen in the US? more segragation? less segregation? open race war? civil disobediance? What exactly would it mean if the black population were to follow his wishes?