AH challenge: a Jutland-like battle in the mediterranean sea

Archibald

Banned
Beside the space program I have a fascination for a) Dragon Ball Z and b) battleships.

I'm slowly learning about Jutland. Early on I tried to imagine one or all Bretagne class battleships in Jutland, but of course that wasn't very realistic for a number of reasons.

But then I learned about the Tegetthoff class battleships and the Otranto barrage
And this
In June 1918, Horthy—by now commander-in-chief of the Austro-Hungarian Navy—determined to launch an attack on the barrage employing the four Tegetthoff-class battleships based at Pola, the most modern in the fleet. While en route down the Adriatic, the dreadnought SMS Szent István was torpedoed and sunk by an Italian torpedo boat at dawn on 10 June, resulting in the attack being cancelled.
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The challenge is to have a Jutland-like battleship brawl in the mediterranean sea involving the Tegetthoffs versus the very similar French Navy Courbets
Perhaps Horty become commander-in-chief earlier and decide to force that pesky barrage with its best units.
Bonus if a single Bretagne-class battleship, and eventually some Italian navy and Royal navy battlewagons can also join the fray. The more big guns the funniest.
 

HMS Warspite

Geographically it is difficult to achive something like a France vs Austria-Hungaria Naval Fight. Italy vs AH is more likely however, as both are situated on the Adriatic Sea, while France is not.

Technically France only had the four Colbert class Dreadnoughts available and before the end of WW1 the first two of the Bretagne Class as well, while Lorraine commissioned just after the Armistrice. Italy also had one Dante Alighieri, two Conte di Cavour and two Andrea Doria Class ships, with a sunken hulk of Leonardo da Vinci (Cavour class) as possible addition in case of salvace later on. Austria only had the four Tegetthof class Dreadnoughts, though like the other two Mediteranean powers also could enlist a number of semi Dreadnoughts as well.

For that a Jutland like battle is highly unlikely, as none of these regional navies had anything comparable to a battlecruiser, which the OTL navies of Germany and UK had during the Skagerak Battle. Battlecruisers bore ther brunt of the fighting in the OTL battle, being used as primary scouting force to make contact with the enemy main fleet. In the Med. this was not possible, as only France and Italy had cruisers in the numbers needed, while A-H had nearly no cruisers at all. (just a quartet of modern fast light cruisers, while the other ones dated back to the previous century.)
 

Archibald

Banned
the four Colbert class Dreadnoughts available and before the end of WW1 the first two of the Bretagne Class as well, while Lorraine commissioned just after the Armistrice.
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Courbet, not Colbert. Not sure how much Wikipedia is reliable, but the Bretagnes entered service in spring 1916.

The term "Jutland" might be confusing, sorry for that. I don't care about battlecruisers or a very large fight; what I want is (at best) a limited battleship vs battleship engagement.
 

HMS Warspite

Well, in that case, a Dreadnought vs Dreandought fight in the Mediteranean, or Adriatic Sea would certainly involve Italy as opponent to an Central power, which most likley would be Austria-Hungaria, but in theory could be the Ottoman Empire as well. (Though the Ottoman Navy only had one Dreadnought type ship, with german personel on it.)

France can be excluded as fighting navy, sicne it had no bases in, or near the waters, where the K.u.K. Navy could operate. (Short ranged ships and no friendly bases to fall back on, other than in the Northern Adriatic Sea.) It could in theory be a repead of the battle of Lisa of 1866, where admiral Tegetthof of the K.u.K. had beaten the Royal Italian Navy under Admiral Persano. The four K.u.K. Dreadnoughts, possibly with the three semi-Dreadnoughts of the Radetzki class, as htese also were capable of simmilar speed, could be opposed to the Italian Navy with five Dreadnoughts of the earlier mentioned classes, as well as possible the four fast sailing semi-Dreadnoughts of the Vittorio Emanuele class. In that case the Italians have a two ship advantages in both types of capital ship combined. In terms of main guns: K.u.K.: (4x12) + (3x4) = 44 guns of 12 inch, plus (4x8)= 32 guns of 9.4 inch. Italy would then have: 12 + (4x13) + (4x2) = 52 guns of 12 inch, plus (4x12) = 48 guns of 8 inch. In both main calliber and heavy secondary callibers, Italy would outgun the Austrians.
 

Archibald

Banned
Reading this it seems that French battleships were hampered by their gun lack of elevation that seriously limited range. I knew the Bretagnes suffered of this illness, but not the Courbets. Why the hell were the guns limited like this ?
 

Captain Jack

Archibald said:
Reading this it seems that French battleships were hampered by their gun lack of elevation that seriously limited range. I knew the Bretagnes suffered of this illness, but not the Courbets. Why the hell were the guns limited like this ?
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The French thought that a decisive battle would occur at about 6,000m. All three Bretagnes were modified to increase gun elevation to 18 degrees. Lorraine in 1917, Bretagne and Provence in 1919. The modification increased the range to just over 21,000 m.


EDIT: (que shameless self advertising) I'm planning to include basically the OP in "Naval Adventures"
 
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Archibald

Banned
"Naval Adventures"
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what's that ? No issue btw, I had no intention of developing that further. I suck at wars. I prefer the space program.

"After 10, 000 years, mankind had found something as exciting as war"
(Arthur C. Clarke, 2001)
 

HMS Warspite

Archibald said:
Reading this it seems that French battleships were hampered by their gun lack of elevation that seriously limited range. I knew the Bretagnes suffered of this illness, but not the Courbets. Why the hell were the guns limited like this ?
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The Courbet and Bretagne classes (as well as the not completed Normandie class) were designed forshort range fights as mentioned, also shown in their scheme of protection. While the USA had started the "All or Nothing" type of protection, the French continued to place armor all over the hull of their battleships, including the ends. This was to prevent serious structural damage from HE shells in particular, mainly from other capital ships QF secondary guns, while offering no protection against larger calliber AP rounds. This resulted in ships capable of engaging enemy ships at short ranges only, simmilar to the Battles in Nelson's age. Long range fights were never considered by the French, until after the Great War.

From Wiki:
Armour[edit source | editbeta]

The Courbet class ships had a waterline armoured belt, 4.75 m (15.6 ft) deep, that was 270 mm (11 in) thick between the fore and aft turrets and tapered to 180 mm (7.1 in) towards the bow and stern. It extended 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in) below the normal waterline. Above the main belt was another belt, 180 mm thick, that covered the sides, and the secondary armament, up to the forecastle deck, 4.5 m (15 ft) deep, between the fore and aft turrets. The vertical armour was backed by 80 mm (3.1 in) of wood. Four of the ship's decks were armoured, between 30 and 48 mm (1.2 and 1.9 in) each, although they were built up from two or more layers of plates. The sides of the lowest armoured deck curved to meet the bottom of the lower edge of the waterline belt armour and increased to a thickness of 70 mm (2.8 in). The conning tower had armour 300 mm (11.8 in) thick. The main gun turrets had 290 mm (11.4 in) of armour on their faces, 250 mm (9.8 in) their sides and roofs 100 mm (3.9 in) thick. Their barbettes had 280 mm (11.0 in) of armour. There was no anti-torpedo bulkhead although there was a longitudinal bulkhead abreast the machinery spaces that was used either as a coal bunker or left as a void.[8]
 

Tizoc

HMS Warspite said:
this was not possible, as only France and Italy had cruisers in the numbers needed, while A-H had nearly no cruisers at all. (just a quartet of modern fast light cruisers, while the other ones dated back to the previous century.)
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Actually, neither France nor Italy had sufficient number of cruisers for scouting. Italy had only 3 modern light cruiers (Quarto, Marsala, Nino Bixio) and France had none (the fastest cruiser was Jurien de la Graviere from 1901, a 23 knot protected cruiser). Armored cruisers just don't cut in.

HMS Warspite said:
France can be excluded as fighting navy, sicne it had no bases in, or near the waters, where the K.u.K. Navy could operate. (Short ranged ships and no friendly bases to fall back on, other than in the Northern Adriatic Sea.)
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Wasn't there a French squadron stationed on Corfu?

HMS Warspite said:
In terms of main guns: K.u.K.: (4x12) + (3x4) = 44 guns of 12 inch, plus (4x8)= 32 guns of 9.4 inch. Italy would then have: 12 + (4x13) + (4x2) = 52 guns of 12 inch, plus (4x12) = 48 guns of 8 inch. In both main calliber and heavy secondary callibers, Italy would outgun the Austrians.
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Italians may had higher numbers, but what about crews? IIRC, Italians of the period had pretty insuficiently trained ones, and A-H had much better trained (compared to Italians) crews.
 

Captain Jack

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Personally, i like the idea of a Colbert class of ships, possibly consisting of
- Étienne Colbert
- Jean Stuart
- l'Oignon
- Borowitz

;) :)
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*applauds*
Well done sir, well done!


Actually, neither France nor Italy had sufficient number of cruisers for scouting. Italy had only 3 modern light cruiers (Quarto, Marsala, Nino Bixio) and France had none (the fastest cruiser was Jurien de la Graviere from 1901, a 23 knot protected cruiser). Armored cruisers just don't cut in.
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The Edgar Quinet class armored cruisers could do 23 knots and the Châteaurenault could do 24.5 knots.

Still you're right that it isn't good enough. Those ships are needed to escort troop convoys from Algeria.

Wasn't there a French squadron stationed on Corfu?
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After 1915 the French moved their base forward from Malta to Brindisi and Corfu even though Greece wasn't yet at war.
 
neopeius

neopeius

We used to game just this scenario all the time. We played 1/6000 miniatures with the Panzerschiffe (TG-3) rules. Each of us took on one of the regional navies in the Eastern Med including Turkey, Greece and Austria Hungary.

I learned way more about the Ottoman Navy than I ever thought I would. :)
 

HMS Warspite

Tizoc said:
Actually, neither France nor Italy had sufficient number of cruisers for scouting. Italy had only 3 modern light cruiers (Quarto, Marsala, Nino Bixio) and France had none (the fastest cruiser was Jurien de la Graviere from 1901, a 23 knot protected cruiser). Armored cruisers just don't cut in.



Wasn't there a French squadron stationed on Corfu?



Italians may had higher numbers, but what about crews? IIRC, Italians of the period had pretty insuficiently trained ones, and A-H had much better trained (compared to Italians) crews.
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The French Squadron at Corfu was supported from Malta in an Anglo/French cooperation. It hardly had support form Corfu itself, meaning it had to carry all fuel (in this case coal) from either Malta, or get it from France directly. Sicne Fracne hardly had a replenishmentfleet of coilers capable of supporting large naval groups, this was rather more easy said than done.

Italy was fighting in its home waters, while possessing developped naval bases nearby (Bari and Tarente mainly in the south-east tip of Italy) Although the quality of the personel might be slightly less than accepted elsewhere, they did posses a relatively modern fleet and could be motivated to fight for their own land, while France could not. (K.u.K. ships occasionally shelled coastal towns on Italian ground, causing much anger and irritation. There is nothing more stimulating for a man under arms to defend his own family, possibly living in such a town under threat.)
 
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