AH Challenge: A Greater Japan

POD 1895
Japan takes Hainan island along Taiwan.

1905
Due to holding Hianan, the Japanese have a bigger Navy including more Marines.
Wanting to get some more of the Fame & Glory, the IJN [Marines] invades Sakhalin. They gain control of the entire Island and remove the Russian Administrators, replacing them with Japanese.

In the Treaty of Portsmouth Japan gains control of the entire Island. This Helps US/Japanese relations, as the Japanese don't feel betrayed by the US.

26-Oct-1909
Korean emperor Gojong, (1852-1919), is accused of plotting the attempted assassination, by An Jung-geun's, of Hirobumi Ito, the first Japanese prime minister, who had just been appointed Resident General of Korea,

1910
Resident General Hirobumi Ito begins a extensive assumulation program for Korea, due to his prestige this will become the Official policy for Taiwan and Hianan also.

1914
Japan DoWs Germany. Japan Captures German Islands north of the Equator, Occupies German Concessions in China.
Included is a occupation of the Parcel & Spatley Islands. None of the Major Powers takes much notice of this occupation.

1915
Japan sends several Cruisers, along with a dozen destroyers to help Britian in the Med. These will be rotated thru several tours.
The Japanese participate in several Franco-Italian forays in the Adriatic.
This cooperation along with port visits in France, help diffuse the growing tensions over Japanese Hianan and French zones in south China.

1919
US requests Japan send 7000 troops to help the US rescue the Czech Legion,that is escaping along the Trans Siberian.
In a narrow vote the Diet turns down the Request. But, Before the Government can resolve the problem and reschedule the vote, the Army & Navy Ministers resign and bringing down the Government.
When The Diet learns the Navy Minister has sent in the Marines without the Diet's authorization, The minor problem expands into a major Constitutional Crisis.

1921
The February 26 incident was an attempted coup d'état in Japan, from February 26 to 29, 1921 carried out by 1,483 troops of the Imperial Japanese Army. Several leading politicians were killed and the center of Tokyo was briefly occupied by the rebelling troops. At that time, the incident was called the deplorable incident in the capital .
Most of the rebelling Army Officers ended being arrested by Naval Marines.

The rest of the year would be spend debating a new Constitution.

1922
A new Constitution is adopted. Very Liberal for the period. It insures full rites for/includes Sakhalin, Taiwan, Hianan, and Korea in the Constitution as part of Imperial Japan.
However it included stringent provisions limiting the political power/participation of the Military.

1928
In 1928 Chang Tso-lin Warload in Control of Manchuria, was growing less cooperative toward the Japanese army in Manchuria and he went to Beijing to make his submission to Chiang Kai-shek. He was killed as his train Derailed as he was returning to Shenyang having just handed over control of Beijing to the Kuomintang and Chiang Kai-shek.
It has long been rumored The derailment was a bomb. As part of a plot to secure nearly all parts of Manchuria beyond the South Manchurian Railway Zone, which was ceded to Japan after the Russo-Japanese War.

Whether the Rumor was true or not, The Civilian Government in Tokyo took no Chances.
Officers and NCO's were transferred around breaking up some units that had been part of South Manchurian Railway Zone since 1906.
The Japanese Government also opened talks with Beijing, over joint control of the South Manchurian Railway Zone, in the same way as China shared control with Russia over the North Manchurian Railway Zone.

1929
The Sino-Soviet conflict of 1929 was a minor armed conflict between the Soviet Union and the Republic of China over the Manchurian Chinese Eastern Railway.

When the Chinese seized the Manchurian Chinese Eastern Railway in 1929, swift Soviet military intervention quickly put an end to the crisis and forced the Chinese to accept restoration of joint Soviet-Chinese administration of the railway.
The Soviets Blamed the Japanese and their talks about joint Control for causing the Crisis.

1932
In 1932, when warlords Feng Yuxiang and Yan Xishan attempted to overthrow Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang government, Zhang Xueliang [warlord Manchuria] stepped in to support the Nanjing government against the northern warlords in exchange for independent control of the Chinese Eastern Railway and the customs revenues from the port city of Tianjin.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese_Eastern_Railway-en.svg]
over the next several years Zhang's Manchu troops will replace the Han Chinese troops in both the northern and southern railroad zones.

1934
Under pressure from the LoN - Britain, France, Portugal, Japan sign a Treaty with China giving up all claims of Extraterritorial Privilege.
In return China agrees to extend the Leases of the leased territories for 50 years,

1936
Japan replaces France as the 3rd largest investor in China [behind US and UK], However it is the largest investor in Manchuria.
Japan has Hired Farmers/Ranchers from Canada/US Great Plains to help set up large Farms/Ranches in Manchuria's Northern Plains.
Most of Zhang's Troops are being equipped by Japan, and being used to Fight Communists in Manchuria.
This is bringing them in conflict with the Russians in the North Manchurian Railway Zone.

[note -- there is no Zhang kidnapping of Chiang Kai-shek, to force Chiang to join a common front against the Japanese. So the Chinese Civil War continues]

1939
Germany invades Poland WW2 begins, Japan declares neutrality, cancels the latest rounds of Port Visits to France and GB. However Japan keeps the Port Visits to Italy and Turkey.

1940
Fall Gelb - Germany invades West, France, Netherlands , Norway falls. Italy enters war,

1941
Operation Barbarossa -Germany invades East.
Chinese Workers in the North Manchurian Railway Zone go on strike, backed by Zhang's Troops. After several Weeks Russia agrees to Give Russian share of Railroad to China.

1942
Large Free French force Invades Vichy Vietnam,
That most of the force was transported in Japanese ships, and the French Planes flew from Japanese Carriers goes unnoticed in newsreels, but not in Berlin and Rome.
In a Rage, Hitler declares War on Japan.
Japanese Ships join British ships in anti Sub Patrols in the Med & Atlantic.

1943
Japanese Ships transport Lend-Lease to Russia. The new Factories in Korea also produce Equipment/Supplies, to be sold to Russia.

1944
Despite millions spent by Japan in equipping the KMT, the Communists have gained control of most of the West of China.

1945
End of WW 2
Philippines gain Independence.
No Atomic Bomb. Tube Project continues.

1949
Communist sweep out of the west, Capturing most of the south as KMT troops tired of the Corruption, change sides.
Zhang's troops move south
Well trained and equipped by the Japanese, they manage to hold the coast as far south as Shanghai. [Japanese Navy helps Ally]

1950

Cease Fire in Chinese Civil War -- It will hold for the next 60 years [aka Korean cease fire]

Japanese giving full rights to Koreans is a potential tinderbox. I guess it could be gotten away with (there were a few million Koreans who moved to Japan for various reasons BESIDES forced labor or economic reasons), but it depends on how much Japan attempts to assimilate Korea (as in the early and late parts of the occupation period) or if they are far more lenient about cultural things, aka no soshi-kamei or related stuff).

Japan helping the ROC/KMT forces that extensively, could work, I guess the only reason I can see it working is assuming Japan as an empire is much more capable, more integrated, and can actually concentrate all their efforts against the Chinese Communists rather than the OTL WWII which is one of the reasons they got screwed so badly.

Interesting idea having China actually divided and maintain a ceasefire that long. Hell of a long DMZ if you turn the cease-fire Korea style like you had said.

Not bad :)
 
Two PODs would do the trick I do believe.

A less corrupt, more competent KMT in China, which would lead to the Nationalists being able to rein in the warlords, perhaps even the communists.

The second, would be having the Sino-German alliance pan out and China actively participating in the Axis in World War II.

If China was able to industrialize a large, modern Army they could have potentially been a powerhouse with sheer numbers alone. Enough that they let Japan join them.

Japan, with a supply of allied oil, then could have carved up northern China and the coastal regions. Given Britain's history, and the occupation of the Netherlands, you could see a joint Japanese/British carving up of the Dutch East Indies even to "protect them" from Axis conquest, being Holland is occupied by the Germans.

Which could make for an interesting cold war situation in China. You could see western China communist, northern China a Japanese Imperial puppet and southern China democratic and in the US/British sphere of influence.
 
Japanese giving full rights to Koreans is a potential tinderbox. I guess it could be gotten away with (there were a few million Koreans who moved to Japan for various reasons BESIDES forced labor or economic reasons), but it depends on how much Japan attempts to assimilate Korea (as in the early and late parts of the occupation period) or if they are far more lenient about cultural things, aka no soshi-kamei or related stuff).

There is an easy way to justify that - do the same thing the Japanese did on Taiwan. After finishing civil unrest, make the Koreans be considered Japanese citizens and build up their country, just as Japan did in Taiwan.
 

abc123

Banned
There is an easy way to justify that - do the same thing the Japanese did on Taiwan. After finishing civil unrest, make the Koreans be considered Japanese citizens and build up their country, just as Japan did in Taiwan.

Yes, but the problem is- 60 millions Koreans will not become Japanese. And they are NOT a small minority against 120 millions of Japanese, like Taiwan indigenous tribes or Taiwan Chinese.
;)
 
When was it 60 million Koreans, btw? If I remember right, it was only 50 million Koreans for BOTH Koreas in the 1970s, and it's only up to 70 million for both right now.

I remember that the Declaration of Independence in 1920 only cited 20 million people, but I guess the thing is how much was it then compared to Japan. Either way, getting Koreans to abandon ethnic identity is not gonna happen, not without really really ugly levels of resistance that Japan prob. would just not want to deal with.
 
Yes, but the problem is- 60 millions Koreans will not become Japanese. And they are NOT a small minority against 120 millions of Japanese, like Taiwan indigenous tribes or Taiwan Chinese.
;)

They weren't 50 million in 1910, they were about 15 million, against about 45 million Japanese. And one must remember that genetically, the Japanese are descended from the Koreans.
 

abc123

Banned
They weren't 50 million in 1910, they were about 15 million, against about 45 million Japanese. And one must remember that genetically, the Japanese are descended from the Koreans.


Never mind, the bottom point is that you CAN NOT assimilate a group wich makes about 1/3 of your population if she do not want to be assimilated. And Koreans don't.

About genetics, than in Balkans there would be no wars...
;)
 
They weren't 50 million in 1910, they were about 15 million, against about 45 million Japanese. And one must remember that genetically, the Japanese are descended from the Koreans.

Ya know, with the genetically related part, makes it seem sort of like a family reunion where there's always those two relatives who make nice in public, but still got a lot of animosity between them (that uncle you never could get along with, the little cousin people you think's just a little brat with some muscles) :p
 
Never mind, the bottom point is that you CAN NOT assimilate a group wich makes about 1/3 of your population if she do not want to be assimilated. And Koreans don't.

About genetics, than in Balkans there would be no wars...
;)

Ya know, with the genetically related part, makes it seem sort of like a family reunion where there's always those two relatives who make nice in public, but still got a lot of animosity between them (that uncle you never could get along with, the little cousin people you think's just a little brat with some muscles) :p

Making multiple cultures into one has worked many times before. I don't expect the Koreans to happily accept Japanese rule, far from it. But the Japanese not treating them like serfs would do much to help their views of Japan. What I envision is that the Japanese treat them as long-lost brothers, which means by 1930 they are free to live wherever they want in Japan. They are not made Japanese, far from it - they are Koreans, but as Korea and Japan are one nation and these people are related to us, how can we oppress them? By 1945 in this case, they look at the Soviets and Chinese, the former being paranoid control freaks and the latter being the people who oppressed the Koreans for two centuries, and decide its better to be with Japan and their American friends than try to go it alone and almost certainly end up taking orders from Beijing or Moscow. Not so much we like the Japanese so much as "we don't hate or fear the Japanese, but we do fear the Russians and hate the Chinese....." Over time, the countries are a single nation with a single military, foreign policy, federal government and the like, while having different cultures and many other differences. Japan's federal government is going to have to be somewhat federal in outlook in any case if they are going to keep Taiwan, so why not do the same here? Japan's government tends to be very pro-business and Japanese prefectures have plenty of autonomy anyways.

My vision has the Japan of 1945 consisting of the Home Islands, Korea, Sakhalin, the Ryukyu Islands (of which Okinawa is the biggest), Taiwan, Hainan, the Kuriles and the Paracel and Spratley Islands. The Japanese get their asses kicked in WWII, which runs roughly along OTL timeframes, except that Stalin never invades, more concerned with fixing his country rather than going after Japan. Japan takes its defeat in war as a sign of its racism being a bad idea, and one of its lessons is that you can integrate lots of various peoples and cultures into your country if they have a common goal or wisdom, which gives rise to the "Japanese Spirit" being an idea that can be shared by anyone who lives in Japan, regardless of their racial background. This erodes Japan's sense of superiority when it comes to race, though it does not by any means end its nationalism.

The entirety of this much bigger Japan firmly allies with the United States, and is staunchly anti-communist. The new Constitution, which is enacted in 1950, prohibits racial discrimination, taking the free men idea almost word for word from the American Constitution. This constitution also gives broad powers to the prefecture governments, which is enacted in large part to allow Koreans, Taiwanese and others to retain their own sense of identity within Japan. The country's economy grows like a weed through the 1950s through the 1970s.

In response to China's first test of an atomic bomb in 1964, Japan begins its own bomb project, with the full knowledge of Washington, which has no issues with the idea. Japan's first bomb is tested in the far Kuril Islands in 1971, and Japan is seen as a full nuclear power by 1975. Taking their cue from the French and British, the Japanese nuclear arsenal is almost entirely mounted on SLBMs, with Japan's first nuclear missile submarine, JS Kurushio, being commissioned in 1976. Japan's armed forces focus more on a powerful Navy and Air Force than anything else, owing to its geography, and though Japan's land forces are relatively small, they are seriously tough, lavishly equipped and very well trained. Japan's Navy by 1980 is the world's second largest, though Japan had no aircraft carriers - it has no need for them, as Japan's armed forces are primarily defensive in nature.

As for the Americans, the last American military base on Okinawa is closed in 1972, and the last few air bases are closed in the early 1980s. The US, however, deploys most of these units to facilities on the Marianas Islands, and American vessels are regular visitors to Japan.
 
Making multiple cultures into one has worked many times before. I don't expect the Koreans to happily accept Japanese rule, far from it. But the Japanese not treating them like serfs would do much to help their views of Japan. What I envision is that the Japanese treat them as long-lost brothers, which means by 1930 they are free to live wherever they want in Japan. They are not made Japanese, far from it - they are Koreans, but as Korea and Japan are one nation and these people are related to us, how can we oppress them? By 1945 in this case, they look at the Soviets and Chinese, the former being paranoid control freaks and the latter being the people who oppressed the Koreans for two centuries, and decide its better to be with Japan and their American friends than try to go it alone and almost certainly end up taking orders from Beijing or Moscow. Not so much we like the Japanese so much as "we don't hate or fear the Japanese, but we do fear the Russians and hate the Chinese....." Over time, the countries are a single nation with a single military, foreign policy, federal government and the like, while having different cultures and many other differences. Japan's federal government is going to have to be somewhat federal in outlook in any case if they are going to keep Taiwan, so why not do the same here? Japan's government tends to be very pro-business and Japanese prefectures have plenty of autonomy anyways.

My vision has the Japan of 1945 consisting of the Home Islands, Korea, Sakhalin, the Ryukyu Islands (of which Okinawa is the biggest), Taiwan, Hainan, the Kuriles and the Paracel and Spratley Islands. The Japanese get their asses kicked in WWII, which runs roughly along OTL timeframes, except that Stalin never invades, more concerned with fixing his country rather than going after Japan. Japan takes its defeat in war as a sign of its racism being a bad idea, and one of its lessons is that you can integrate lots of various peoples and cultures into your country if they have a common goal or wisdom, which gives rise to the "Japanese Spirit" being an idea that can be shared by anyone who lives in Japan, regardless of their racial background. This erodes Japan's sense of superiority when it comes to race, though it does not by any means end its nationalism.

The entirety of this much bigger Japan firmly allies with the United States, and is staunchly anti-communist. The new Constitution, which is enacted in 1950, prohibits racial discrimination, taking the free men idea almost word for word from the American Constitution. This constitution also gives broad powers to the prefecture governments, which is enacted in large part to allow Koreans, Taiwanese and others to retain their own sense of identity within Japan. The country's economy grows like a weed through the 1950s through the 1970s.

In response to China's first test of an atomic bomb in 1964, Japan begins its own bomb project, with the full knowledge of Washington, which has no issues with the idea. Japan's first bomb is tested in the far Kuril Islands in 1971, and Japan is seen as a full nuclear power by 1975. Taking their cue from the French and British, the Japanese nuclear arsenal is almost entirely mounted on SLBMs, with Japan's first nuclear missile submarine, JS Kurushio, being commissioned in 1976. Japan's armed forces focus more on a powerful Navy and Air Force than anything else, owing to its geography, and though Japan's land forces are relatively small, they are seriously tough, lavishly equipped and very well trained. Japan's Navy by 1980 is the world's second largest, though Japan had no aircraft carriers - it has no need for them, as Japan's armed forces are primarily defensive in nature.

As for the Americans, the last American military base on Okinawa is closed in 1972, and the last few air bases are closed in the early 1980s. The US, however, deploys most of these units to facilities on the Marianas Islands, and American vessels are regular visitors to Japan.

Wait, so Japan gets their asses kicked in WW2 and is STILL allowed to keep all those overseas posessions?? How in the world is that supposed to happen? IIRC, at one of the conferences during the war there was an explicit statement regarding independence of I think most/all of Japan's overseas posessions, Korean, Taiwan, Hainan, etc. Does the US, despite Pearl Harbor, somehow come to a conclusion that lets Japan keep a good chunk of empire, despite Roosevelt having an anti-empire streak.

Also, you need to somehow get Japan still fighting the US and both not being on the Axis side per se, and also get its militarist leaders out of the way, so that there's no Unit 731, no Bataan Death March, no comfort women (or at least not nearly on that scale), etc.

You would def. need some POD making Japan's concept of citizenship and nationhood extend beyond blood and race, and I'm just not sure how the hell you can get Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc of thinking of themselves as one nation. One people is ASB, but one nation, maaaaaaybe, it straddles that fine fine line between barely plausible and ASB.

Personally, since my major focal point is Korean history and culture, the Japanese are gonna have to be much more careful in how they rule over the peninsula. This means no demolishing Gyeongbokgung (over 90 percent was wiped out) and building a colonial administrative building on its place, no trying to outlaw the language, altering history, etc. Taiwan, I think someone said elsewhere on the board that by 1945 integration had actually done decently, so not sure if that would need much of a change. The biggest problem, I think, is that you need to change Japanese perceptions of Koreans during that period, and very VERY quickly, which is hard to do. OTL, the Koreans were eventually to become Japanese, that is, assimilated completely, but still somehow relegated to being second-class citizens, perhaps by keeping their Korean names (at one point it was actually forbidden to have a Korean change his or her name to Japanese for any reason, I believe actually up until the soshi-kamei decree). If, and that's a big IF, they can get Koreans and Japanese to think they are part of the same nation (again, same people, even as long lost brothers is ASB), maaaybe they have a chance, slim, but maybe there.

Oh, and with the genetics thing, wasn't it only postwar that DNA was discovered, making the whole genetic tree bit possible? The only reason we know Koreans and Japanese are more closely related than say Koreans and Chinese is because of modern genetics, so I'm not sure if that kind of thing is even remotely possible to come by in 1910-20 (which is when it would need to be for the whole long lost brothers thing to really come out)
 
Wait, so Japan gets their asses kicked in WW2 and is STILL allowed to keep all those overseas posessions?? How in the world is that supposed to happen? IIRC, at one of the conferences during the war there was an explicit statement regarding independence of I think most/all of Japan's overseas posessions, Korean, Taiwan, Hainan, etc. Does the US, despite Pearl Harbor, somehow come to a conclusion that lets Japan keep a good chunk of empire, despite Roosevelt having an anti-empire streak.

1) Roosevelt is dead by the end of the war, as he was IOTL, and Truman and his generals and admirals are more worried about communism. ITTL Chiang Kai-shek does not side with the Allies, and by 1945 he's losing badly to Mao and the Communists. Kai-shek is killed in 1947 ITTL, and the fear of communism leads to the Americans figuring that its better to have Japan and its colonies as a single federation rather than a bunch of smaller countries that are likely to fall into the sphere of Communists in China, the Soviet Union or both.

Also, you need to somehow get Japan still fighting the US and both not being on the Axis side per se, and also get its militarist leaders out of the way, so that there's no Unit 731, no Bataan Death March, no comfort women (or at least not nearly on that scale), etc.

I didn't remove the militarists. If anything, they would be stronger here, as Japan has a much longer sea route to secure and needs considerably more oil to do so. They here did not side with the Axis formally, though the Americans and other allies saw them as such - and here, they never attacked Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia or the British colonies, figuring that Britain had its hands full in Europe and that attacking them would be causing more trouble than it was worth. The goal here is entirely to secure the oil of the Dutch East Indies and the resources of Manchuria, which they figured would be easy with the Dutch nation occupied and China tearing itself apart. Britain and America disputed that, which led to war between them. This Japan also took in some European Jews that Stalin, during the time between the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and Operation Barbarossa, allowed to use the Soviet Union to go from Europe to Vladivostok, then on to Japan. (IOTL, this happened to a small extent. ITTL, it happens to a much bigger one.) Pearl Harbor is more destructive than OTL, with many of the harbor facilities hit, though the US Navy fixes that fairly quickly.

Unit 731 is directed at the people in Manchuria, though it does not have the incredible, sickening, gruesome excesses that it did IOTL. (ITTL, China does not like Japan in large part as a result of that, too.) The Bataan Death March still happens, and the comfort women in this case are not Koreans or Taiwanese, they are Filipinos and Chinese. Japan's actions in this case are aimed at China and the Philippines more than Korea or Taiwan. The effective destruction of Japan by the allies is such a shock to the Japanese that they want to know what allowed America to build its nation, which the Americans encourage, figuring that the bigger Japan could be a major power, allied to the US and allowing an effect surrounding of the USSR by countries allied with the USA.

You would def. need some POD making Japan's concept of citizenship and nationhood extend beyond blood and race, and I'm just not sure how the hell you can get Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc of thinking of themselves as one nation. One people is ASB, but one nation, maaaaaaybe, it straddles that fine fine line between barely plausible and ASB.

Yes, one people in ASB, there are too many differences. I've been looking for a way of making the Japanese treat the Koreans as brothers, and one idea I've been having is that Korean opens the gates about the same time Japan does, and sees them growing into a modern nations as well. The Japanese thought here is - they are doing this, too, and they are quite similar to us, so they must be very much like us. I am wondering if its possible, perhaps, to have discoveries of Korean artifacts on Kyushu and southern Honshu in the late 1800s, confirming a Korean presence hundreds of years before. One could also point out that Buddhism in Japan came from Korea, and with history books pointing out that many of the elements of Japanese culture largely originating from Korea. (OOC: Quite true. The first real developments in Japanese culture started showing in the 8th Century, and had a number of similarities with those of Korea.) As Japan comes out of isolation in the 1870s, Meiji proclaims that from his study of history, that Koreans and Japanese began as brothers many years before, that the Gods (Amaterasu most notably) created Japanese and Koreans to be brothers, and that Japan should endeavor to unite the two brothers, that they have been divided by others for too long. Thus, the Japanese and Korean peoples are brothers, and that together they can be their own masters in the modern world. They bring this idea with them when they fight the First Sino-Japanese War, and the Koreans find out then about the idea, with the Japanese claiming that the Gojoseon was in itself a creation of the same Gods which made the people of Japan, and what Japan is doing is just uniting the peoples.

Personally, since my major focal point is Korean history and culture, the Japanese are gonna have to be much more careful in how they rule over the peninsula. This means no demolishing Gyeongbokgung (over 90 percent was wiped out) and building a colonial administrative building on its place, no trying to outlaw the language, altering history, etc. Taiwan, I think someone said elsewhere on the board that by 1945 integration had actually done decently, so not sure if that would need much of a change. The biggest problem, I think, is that you need to change Japanese perceptions of Koreans during that period, and very VERY quickly, which is hard to do. OTL, the Koreans were eventually to become Japanese, that is, assimilated completely, but still somehow relegated to being second-class citizens, perhaps by keeping their Korean names (at one point it was actually forbidden to have a Korean change his or her name to Japanese for any reason, I believe actually up until the soshi-kamei decree). If, and that's a big IF, they can get Koreans and Japanese to think they are part of the same nation (again, same people, even as long lost brothers is ASB), maaaybe they have a chance, slim, but maybe there.

Oh, and with the genetics thing, wasn't it only postwar that DNA was discovered, making the whole genetic tree bit possible? The only reason we know Koreans and Japanese are more closely related than say Koreans and Chinese is because of modern genetics, so I'm not sure if that kind of thing is even remotely possible to come by in 1910-20 (which is when it would need to be for the whole long lost brothers thing to really come out)

That's a given here - after all, how does one try to destroy the traditions and past of someone who is related to them? The Meiji Restoration period saw vast and sweeping changes in Japan's culture in any case, and if Meiji or his people can show the idea of Korea and Japan coming from the same past - which is a bit of a stretch to do by me, as admittedly I only know some about the history of these countries, someone who knows more than me may be able to help me on this one - then this idea can exist. I do admit that it requires a huge amount of maneuvering, but I think its possible. As for the rest, you simply have the Americans decide that keeping Japan intact is important to simply keep Mao and Stalin at bay, which is pretty easy.
 

abc123

Banned
Making multiple cultures into one has worked many times before. I don't expect the Koreans to happily accept Japanese rule, far from it. But the Japanese not treating them like serfs would do much to help their views of Japan. What I envision is that the Japanese treat them as long-lost brothers, which means by 1930 they are free to live wherever they want in Japan. They are not made Japanese, far from it - they are Koreans, but as Korea and Japan are one nation and these people are related to us, how can we oppress them? By 1945 in this case, they look at the Soviets and Chinese, the former being paranoid control freaks and the latter being the people who oppressed the Koreans for two centuries, and decide its better to be with Japan and their American friends than try to go it alone and almost certainly end up taking orders from Beijing or Moscow. Not so much we like the Japanese so much as "we don't hate or fear the Japanese, but we do fear the Russians and hate the Chinese....." Over time, the countries are a single nation with a single military, foreign policy, federal government and the like, while having different cultures and many other differences. Japan's federal government is going to have to be somewhat federal in outlook in any case if they are going to keep Taiwan, so why not do the same here? Japan's government tends to be very pro-business and Japanese prefectures have plenty of autonomy anyways.

My vision has the Japan of 1945 consisting of the Home Islands, Korea, Sakhalin, the Ryukyu Islands (of which Okinawa is the biggest), Taiwan, Hainan, the Kuriles and the Paracel and Spratley Islands. The Japanese get their asses kicked in WWII, which runs roughly along OTL timeframes, except that Stalin never invades, more concerned with fixing his country rather than going after Japan. Japan takes its defeat in war as a sign of its racism being a bad idea, and one of its lessons is that you can integrate lots of various peoples and cultures into your country if they have a common goal or wisdom, which gives rise to the "Japanese Spirit" being an idea that can be shared by anyone who lives in Japan, regardless of their racial background. This erodes Japan's sense of superiority when it comes to race, though it does not by any means end its nationalism.

The entirety of this much bigger Japan firmly allies with the United States, and is staunchly anti-communist. The new Constitution, which is enacted in 1950, prohibits racial discrimination, taking the free men idea almost word for word from the American Constitution. This constitution also gives broad powers to the prefecture governments, which is enacted in large part to allow Koreans, Taiwanese and others to retain their own sense of identity within Japan. The country's economy grows like a weed through the 1950s through the 1970s.

In response to China's first test of an atomic bomb in 1964, Japan begins its own bomb project, with the full knowledge of Washington, which has no issues with the idea. Japan's first bomb is tested in the far Kuril Islands in 1971, and Japan is seen as a full nuclear power by 1975. Taking their cue from the French and British, the Japanese nuclear arsenal is almost entirely mounted on SLBMs, with Japan's first nuclear missile submarine, JS Kurushio, being commissioned in 1976. Japan's armed forces focus more on a powerful Navy and Air Force than anything else, owing to its geography, and though Japan's land forces are relatively small, they are seriously tough, lavishly equipped and very well trained. Japan's Navy by 1980 is the world's second largest, though Japan had no aircraft carriers - it has no need for them, as Japan's armed forces are primarily defensive in nature.

As for the Americans, the last American military base on Okinawa is closed in 1972, and the last few air bases are closed in the early 1980s. The US, however, deploys most of these units to facilities on the Marianas Islands, and American vessels are regular visitors to Japan.


Japanese possesion of Hainan is not requiered, but is definitly a bonus.

There's NO WAY that USA will allow that Japan posses a nuclear weapons after Pearl Harbour. Simply ASB.

No, Japan can not make the war with USA or UK, because he can't win in that war.
ALso, Japan can't full-scale attack China because that would get USA and UK in conflict with Japan.

So, Manchuria as a colony, with later decolonisation ( maybe not overtaken from China/USSR, maybe yes ), and a friendly Korea ( with independence no later than 1950. ).

Taivan is not problem for assimilation, I dont see reason for federalisation of Japan, simply add a certain number of perfectures, proportionaly with population of Taiwan, let's say if Taiwan has 23 millions, and Japan 127 millions, and if Japan is divided in 47 prefectures, so divide Taiwan in about 8- 10 prefectures, and it's OK. Japan can stay unitary state.
Because, number of Chinese in Taiwan was not so high before WW2, they can stay in island as a minority ( about 1/3 of the population ), other two thirds will be composed of aboriginals and Japanese.

I appologise if my english is very bad, but it's not my mother-tongue, and I'm a autodidact in it.
;)
 
Wait, the percentage of Han people in Taiwan is currently 98%. How the hell would it only be 1/3 in around 1940?
 

abc123

Banned
Wait, the percentage of Han people in Taiwan is currently 98%. How the hell would it only be 1/3 in around 1940?

The key-word is CURRENTLY.
Without a arrival of a couple of millions of Chinese in 1949., and with the arrival of a few millions of Japanese, no problem at all.
;)
 
Japanese possesion of Hainan is not requiered, but is definitly a bonus.

Yes, it allows Japan to have a greater influence in Southeast Asia.

There's NO WAY that USA will allow that Japan posses a nuclear weapons after Pearl Harbour. Simply ASB.

I don't think so. The 1971 Japan of my TL bears few similarities to the Japan of 1941. Besides, Washington may know about it, but in this case they need to have Japan on their side in order to contain the PRC and USSR.
 

abc123

Banned
Yes, it allows Japan to have a greater influence in Southeast Asia.



I don't think so. The 1971 Japan of my TL bears few similarities to the Japan of 1941. Besides, Washington may know about it, but in this case they need to have Japan on their side in order to contain the PRC and USSR.

Bold: I agree.
Also, Japan becomes a major player in Spratley and Paracel islands dispute, and all that oil and gas there and around Hainan.
Also, Hainan is very rich with minerals from iron to cobalt and gold.


Yes, but the problem is that even today USA fears of strong Japan. They remember what problems Japan make to them with so puny industry in WW2, imagine what would Japan do with today's industry.
;)
 

abc123

Banned
Bold: I agree.
Also, Japan becomes a major player in Spratley and Paracel islands dispute, and all that oil and gas there and around Hainan.
Also, Hainan is very rich with minerals from iron to cobalt and gold.


Yes, but the problem is that even today USA fears of strong Japan. They remember what problems Japan make to them with so puny industry in WW2, imagine what would Japan do with today's industry.
;)


So, what do you think, how would look like Imperial Navy in this timeline Greater Japan?
:confused:
 
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