AH Challange: Russkies in the ACW

Take your pick the ACW is one of the AH triangle right? So there has got to be alot. Admitedly i cant think of any besides the trent affair or if you dare to be different intervention in poland followed by an odd chain of events leading to WW1.

Edit: Wierd how all my post coincide with another person posting.
 
I think the best way to get this to happen is to actually juxtapose it on another war. Like another Russo-Turkish one with some additional complications.

The only problem is that I'm imagining the British quickly abandon the South and try to concentrate on Russia instead, leading to probable Russian defeat after enormous costs to Britain itself.
 
Hm thanks for all the ideas im planing to write something bout this so keep suggesting stuff please. Most importantly i need a POD right now.

Im thinking that after the trent affair hot head British officers do their own "trent" incident as payback, and hostilities pick up from there.
 
Last edited:
There wasn't any reason for the British to get involved in the ACW and they were taking all sorts of steps not to. The British are simply not going to support the Confederacy.

The Russian fleet visited various Union ports in order to be in a neutral port in the eventuality of war with Britain over Poland.
 
There wasn't any reason for the British to get involved in the ACW and they were taking all sorts of steps not to. The British are simply not going to support the Confederacy.

The Russian fleet visited various Union ports in order to be in a neutral port in the eventuality of war with Britain over Poland.

Well than it could work out Britain could go to war over Poland and preemptively attack elements of the Russian navy in a Union port. War ensures, Britain says to hell with it and with their troops in Canada try to force a quick defeat on America before having to fight a two front war with the Union navy and Canada on one hand and the siege of Russia on the other hand.

Too optimistic?
 
Well than it could work out Britain could go to war over Poland and preemptively attack elements of the Russian navy in a Union port. War ensures, Britain says to hell with it and with their troops in Canada try to force a quick defeat on America before having to fight a two front war with the Union navy and Canada on one hand and the siege of Russia on the other hand.

Too optimistic?

If you are desperate for a POD you mean. I strongly doubt that there would be any 'preemptive attack' on any Russian naval vessels in Union ports.
 
If you are desperate for a POD you mean. I strongly doubt that there would be any 'preemptive attack' on any Russian naval vessels in Union ports.

Well yes i am sorta desperate but some people would just say im open to ideas. Despite the impossibility of it, seems funny to imagine a British ship to head to port guns blazing, then having a "day that will live in infamy" speech.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Okay:

1. Russian Policy

Russia is entirely focused on avoiding another war with Britain. The Crimean War was an absolute disaster for Russia, who lost more dead than both sides in the entire ACW. In 1863, the deployment of a couple of small squadrons overseas is insurance against the Anglo-French alliance deciding to intervene in Poland.

2. Russian Navy

It's small, very small. They'd lost a vast portion of their fleet in 1854-6, and still hadn't recovered. The force sent to New York would be roughly handled by the Coast Guard Squadron off Queenstown (Cork), let alone a British cruising squadron.

Also, the British had forced the Russians to dismantle large parts of their coastal defences in 1856. Any local RN squadron could dominate the coasts.

3. British Intervention

The British came close to intervening in the ACW 5 times (the last time in July 1863), it doesn't require a lot of handwaving. Maybe the San Jacinto is intercepted by the RN at the time of the Trent Affair (British intelligence had penetrated the US to such a great degree that Milne had spies actually aboard all major USN vessels, he knew of San Jacinto's intensions (even though the US government didn't), and had ordered any RN warship encountering her to shadow her and engage her if she approached any British Packet)
 

Dure

Banned
Balance of power

Introduction

The pacific squadron was also taking an interest in Australia where they had orders to attack british ships stationed in Australia and shell several cities.

This is historians speculating. No such orders have ever been found. However ... the idea that the Imperial Russian Pacific squadron in San Francisco might attack the cities of Australia, with or without the assistance of the Union Navy is of itself pretty questionable. They would be far better employed as commerce raiders especially if they go for the whalers first. In this post I have tried to show the relative balance of naval power in the Pacific to make it clearer to readers why an attack on Australia is pretty unlikely.

Please note that in what follows below the standard of the information presented is uneven. I have good primary source data for where Royal Navy ships are at any given time and some basic information about them. I have good secondary source information on the size, complement etc. for some of the RN ships. I only have tertiary information on the exact nature of the battery on a ship if I have it at all and that tertiary source is usually Wikipedia! I have good primary source information on the basic information and battery of all United States Navy ships. I rarely have or at least am rarely able track where USN ships are at any given time except in the most general terms and I do that through secondary and tertiary sources. My information on the Imperial Russian ships is all tertiary, incomplete and up for question! The dispositions I discuss are for Summer/Autumn 1863, the Russian Squadrons arrived in the cities of San Francisco and New York in Sept. 1863. The British and Union dispositions do not change much over this period, those of the Russians clearly do.

US Pacific Squadron

Consider the following. In summer 1863 just before the Russian Squadron arrived the US Pacific flotilla consisted of the following ships:

Lancaster, screw sloop, 27, Flagship Pacific R-A Ch. Bell
Sarnac, screw sloop, 9
Narragasett, screw sloop, 5
Wyoming, screw sloop, 6
Saginaw, paddle vessel, 3
Cyan, 22 & St. Mary’s, 22, sail sloops
Farallones, sail storeship, 4
Independence, 90?, sail receiving ship San Francisco
Decatur, 16, sail guardship of San Francisco
USRC Shubrick screw cutter and 3 other revenue cutters can also be made available to the USN.

The monitor USS Cammanche arrived in the hold of SS Aquilla in mid-Nov. 1863 which promptly sank. They eventually salvaged it.

It is likely that I have missed at least a few small vessels from this list. They are unlikely to make much difference to the balance of power.

The function of the US Pacific squadron is to keep California in the Union, keep the gold, silver and post flowing around the Horn, protect Union shipping from Confederate commerce raiders and, ensure the USA’s interests in the Pacific are upheld. It did this brilliantly during the American Civil War. It is a near obsolete fleet and very vulnerable to steam warships.

The only Union Naval Yard on the West Coast is at Mere Island. It would appear that the Union Navy in San Francisco imports at least some of its steam raising coal from the British colonies of British Columbia and Vancouver Island.

At this time the harbour of San Francisco is poorly defended, there were a few guns on Alcatraz, some at fort point and some on the shore immediately opposite Alcatraz. Unfortunately for the Union most of the stocks of arms in California went east to fight the Confederacy.

Russian Squadron at San Francisco

The Imperial Russian squadron which travelled there from the base at Nikolayevsk-na-Amure to over winter in San Francisco consisted of the following ships:

Kalevala, screw corvette, 19, Finnish, Flagship R-A A. Popov
Rynda,11 & Novik, 11, Boyarin class screw corvettes
Bogatyr, screw corvette, 18
Gaidamak, screw clipper, 7
Abrek, screw clipper, 5

They stayed in San Francisco from Sept. 1863 until Aug. 1864

I do not know if they were accompanied by storeships or merchant ships in support, it appears not but I cannot confirm that. The screw clippers are a unique Russian, primarily anti-British weapon, they are fast commerce raiders.

The following ships are still in the Russian Far East or Alaska and if they are in Vladivostok they may be available in the winter as it is an ice free port.

Girden, Boyarin class screw corvette, 11
Vsadnik, Abrek class screw clipper, 5

There may also be a few smaller ships and certainly several gunboats I have missed.

The Russian base is at Nikolayevsk-na-Amure, they have several other important ports in the Far East notably Kamchatky-Petropavlovsk and Vladivostock.

Royal Navy

To get to Australia the Russians and Americans need to get past three Royal Navy stations:

The Pacific station

It has its home port at Esquimalt on Vancouver Island. It has bases at Callao and Valparaiso.

Sutlej, screw frigate, 35, Flagship R-A J. Kingscombe
Bacchante, 39, Topaze, 51 (ordered home), Liffey class screw frigates
Leander, screw frigate,39
Tribune, screw frigate, 23
Charybdis, 21 and Clio, 22 (ordered home), Pearl class screw corvettes
Tartar, Cossack class screw corvette, 20
Camelion, Camelion class screw sloop, 17
Muntie, Grayhound class screw sloop, 17 (ordered home)
Shearwater, Rosario class screw sloop, 11
Hecate, paddle sloop, 6 (ordered home)
Grappler, Albacore class gunboat

There are also two storeships operating as support bases.

Naiad, sail, 6 at Callao
Nereus, sail, 6 at Valparaiso

The East Indies and China station

There are bases at Shanghai, Trincomalee, Singapore and Hong Kong. Hong Kong has a flotilla of gunboats.

Hong Kong

Princess Charlotte, sail receiving ship, 12
Banterer, 4, Dove, 4, Forester, 4, Opossum, 4, Albacore class screw gunboats
Snap, 3, Starling, 3, Dapper class screw gunboats
Drake, 2, Woodcock, 2, Clown class gunboats

Main forces

Euralyus, Forte class screw frigate, 35, Flagship R-A. A. Kuper
Severn, screw frigate, 35
Odin, paddle frigate, 17 (ordered home)
Leopard, paddle frigate, 18
Barrosa, Jason class screw corvette, 21
Pearl, 21 Scout, 21, Pearl class screw corvettes (both ordered home)
Encounter, screw corvette, 14 (ordered home)
Hornet, Cruzier class screw sloop, 17
Pantaloon, Racer class screw sloop, 11
Perseus, 17, Rattler, 17, Camelion class screw sloops
Sphinx, paddle sloop, 6 (ordered home)
Argus, paddle sloop, 6
Centaur, paddle sloop, 6 (ordered home)
Vigillant, 4, Coquette, 4, Ringdove, 4 (ordered home), Vigillant class screw gunvessels
Cormorant, 4, Racehorse, 4, Cormorant class screw gunvessels
Algerine, 1, Leven, 1, Algerine class screw gunvessels
Osprey, screw gunvessel, 4
Slaney, screw gunvessel, 1
Bouncer, 4, Bustard, 4, Grasshopper, 4, Cockchafer, 4, Flamer, 4, Hardy, 4, Haughty, 4, Havlock, 4, Insolent, 4, Staunch, 4, Albacore class screw gunboats
Weazel, Dapper class screw gunboat, 4
Clown, N/K, Janus, 2, Kestrel, 2, Watchful, 2, Clown class screw gunboats
Coromandel, paddle, dispatch vessel, 6
Vulcan, screw troopship, 6
Manilla, screw storeship, none
Hesper, screw storeship, 4

In addition to which there are three surveying vessels:

Swallow, screw sloop, 9
Rifleman, screw gunvessel, 5
Saracen, sail brig-sloop, 10, Tender to Rifleman

Note that there is also an Indian Royal Navy. This has reached a low ebb by 1863 and it is mostly involved in support, internal policing and troop transport. However, it has steamships as well as sailing ships, naval bases and is well able to take over the tasks of commerce protection and pirate chasing from the Royal Navy until reinforcements arrive from Britain.

The Australia station

In 1863 the British and the Maori are at war in the Waikato in New Zealand so this station is their weak spot as most of the ships are in New Zealand waters. On the other hand there are also some weak colonial ships (i.e. merchant hulls) that have been taken into service.

Curacoa, Tribune class screw frigate, 17, Flagship Co. Wm. Wiseman
Eske, Highflyer class screw corvette, 21
Miranda, screw corvette, 17
Harrier, Cruzier class screw sloop, 17
Falcon, Cruzier class screw sloop, 17 (ordered out)
Pioneer, Intrepid class screw gunvessel, 6 (ordered home)
Eclipse, Cormorant class screw gunvessel, 4

There are also the following colonial vessels in service around North Island New Zealand:

Pioneer (not the Pioneer above), stern paddle vessel, 2
Avon, Sandfly and Corio

It is worth mentioning that in the above ships ordered home are normally matched by ships ordered out. Unfortunately the primary sources do not make it easy to identify these new ships.

Strategic summary

Because of the trans-continental telegraph the Union and the Russians on the Pacific coast would be aware of a declaration of war by the Union on Great Britain before the British Pacific station. This might give them the chance to race for Australia before they can be stopped at source. Unfortunately there is also a telegraph to India so the British there will be able to send forces south quickly. There is thus little reason to expect the Russians would be unopposed on arrival.

Unfortunately for the Union most of their ships are sailing ships and they are incapable of keeping up with the Russians. In any case they probably need to defend the West Coast from the Pacific station ships who can easily overwhelm the defences of San Francisco, the only significant port and coastal city.

Some of the Russian Far East ports are vulnerable to British gunboat attacks but for the most part the north Pacific is an irrelevance as nearly everything will be iced in until spring come November (but not Vladivostok).

Note that in a few months the British will have taken ships out of reserve and reinforcements will be available in the Pacific. They can get them there faster by taking ships from the Cape and reinforcing the Cape from the home islands.
Attacking Australia is a pointless exercise, commerce raiding could be very successful for the Russians and the Union.

Russian Squadron in New York

For completeness: the Russian Squadron that was sent from Krondstadt on the Baltic to New York was as follows:

Aleksandr Nevskii screw frigate, 50, Flagship R-A. S.S. Lesovsky
Peresvet screw frigate, 51
Oslyabya screw frigate, 45
Variag screw corvette, 18
Vitiaz screw corvette, 18
Almaz screw clipper, 7

There are many ships left in the Baltic, the Black sea, some on the White sea and three in the Mediterranean.

In case anyone is wondering the prospects of the Russians and Union ships on the Atlantic are no better than for their forces in the Pacific once the British get going but right at the start of the war they have a much better prospect than the Union did in 1862 over the Trent Affair. In 1862 the British were anchored on Vera Cruz in Mexico, now they have to use Jamaica or re-establish a presence in Mexico. In 1862 Milne had a decent sized war fleet, not big enough to end the war but big enough to start it. In 1863 he has a smaller fleet for policing the Union blockade, he would probably have to wait for reinforcements before he really goes to war.
 
Last edited:
Also thanks for the book suggestion looks good (seems a bit overly focused on the weapons aspect though). I got to look into it.

Yeah, the first time I read it I was getting kind of impatient for the actual conflict to get rolling. I did get more out of it when I re-read it though.
 

Dure

Banned
The Russians could try to send a horde of Cossack cavalry through Afghanistan into India.

Cavalry are faster and the Cossacks might be better at living off the land than Russian regular infantry. Plus the Afghans could be bribed not to interfere.

Oh come on just because the Afghans don't like Anglican flavoured infidels from the south does not mean that they will hug the Orthodox bear to the north with open arms, especially as the Afghans can see what is happening in Central Asia. They were a pre-industrial Islamic people, this does not make them stupid or even particularly ignorant, they are not a bunch of blind-deaf cretins the can see what is going on around them!

Cavalry need fodder other wise they are just infantry with horsemeat stew for dinner. The Russians have not completed the conquest of Central Asia yet. So how exactly are the Russians going to get to Afghanistan?

Lastly, what are you going to offer the Cossacks to get them out of the Don valley and Siberia?
 
Cavalry need fodder other wise they are just infantry with horsemeat stew for dinner. The Russians have not completed the conquest of Central Asia yet. So how exactly are the Russians going to get to Afghanistan?

You know, you underestimate the sophistication of the Cossacks and in fact Russian colonial warfare. They could and did set up relay points and supply depots ahead of the operation even in the time period. Nonetheless, they didn't feel politically confident about annexations until much later in the century, probably for good reason,

Lastly, what are you going to offer the Cossacks to get them out of the Don valley and Siberia?
Nothing. Most of them are regular troops at this point. The Ural, Orenburg, Siberian Transbaikal and Semirechye hosts were all essentially regulars. You tell them to go, they go.

That said, I still don't see it happening. It's too far, the Afghans are unpredictable as allies and dangerous as enemies, and previous plans to invade India (Franco-Russian effort under Paul) was sensibly abandoned anyway.

So it's not happening, I think.
 
Last edited:

Dure

Banned
@RGB

At this time the Russians have not even got as far as Samarkand. Your relay points and depots will all be in hostile territory so they need to be defended. The size of the train would be enormous and that is before you even get to Afghanistan. It is completely unworkable.

You may be right about the other Cossacks, I am not sure of my fact but I am sure the Siberian Cossacks operate under the old semi-fudal arrangements at this time (1863).
 
Top