AH challange: Make the Byzantine empire last until at least the 17th century

If this is true, then why did the Russians covet the Straits for 500+ years after the Fall of Constantinople, and why did the British and French work so hard to stop them getting them?

Easy access to the Mediterranean for the Black Sea Fleet, and the desire to not let the Russians have easy access to the Mediterranean, respectively.

Constantinople was still a major trading center throughout the period of the Ottomans, but it wasn't what it was under Justinian. The Straits of the Dardanelles was the Straits of Malacca of its day. That day passed, however. It's still an amazingly important trade route, but not THE important trade route as it used to be.
 
The only reason the First Crusade was so sucessful was because the Muslims were so dis-united. If you fight Saladin to a stalemate or even achieve a military victory only getting the Muslims at each others throats is the only way to maintain the Crusader States. Thats no gunna happen as Saladin had created a fairly strong coalition, and so long as thats in play expect the collapse of the States eventualy
 
Defeating Saladin and capturing Jerusalem won't save Outremer but it would undoubtably strengthen it and prolong its survival, and all the while the Empire consolidates its revival. The 3rd Crusade captured Iconium, which gives the Christians a stronghold in central Anatolia to increase their power. Also I don't think a more successful 3rd Crusade would lead to the 4th Crusade which was a disaster for the Empire. So in the end we have a united Dar Al Islam being kept busy by an enhanced Outremer and a butterlied 4th Crusade probably intervening in this struggle rather than crippling the Empire. This leaves the Empire in a much better position to bear the shocks that history dealt out during the 13th & 14th centuries, and in my opinion may leave the Empire still alive to an extent by 1601.
 
I never said it was in 1077, but even with a victory at Manzikert and avoiding a fourth crusade (plus the civil division was why they lost at Manzikert so im putting those two eggs in the same basket) still wont protect the Byzantines from the Turks/Seljuks/Ottomans, stand by my point that the discovery of america is the only way for the Byzantium empire to stretch on until the 17th and further.

With any POD in the 11th or 12th c, there are almost certainly not going to be Ottomans, so this is just not an issue. The Ottomans didn't sweep in like Mongols, they started out as a teeny little beylik on the edge of the Byzantine Empire near Bursa.

If not for the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantines would have been in a position to regain control over the Anatolian plateau once the Rum Seljuk state began to disintigrate, or at least could have taken advantage of the Mongols to move back in.

A republic is unthinkable. Eventually the monarchy would have to become constitutional, but I don't see any reason why the empire couldn't survive to the present. It would probably lose some outlying territory and be reduced to whatever portion of it is Hellenized, but that could include all of Greece and most of today's Turkey, as well as a lot of Albania, Macedonia, and Bulgaria.
 
The best POD for the Byzantine Empire to survive until at least the 17th century would almost certainly be to have the Byzantines win the Battle of Manzikert.

Then if the Byzantines can follow up on this win and successfully defend Anatolia from the Turks in the 1070's while stabilizing their society one way or another, they'd likely be able to retain most if not all of their holdings that they had in 1071 for a while longer.

I could even see a stronger Byzantium at some point seeking to retake the Holy Land from the Muslims for some reason.

Of course, having a stronger Byzantium post-1071 AD might lead to further clashes between the Vatican and the Byzantines as the former would be unhappy that such a powerful empire dared to defy them in terms of religion and seemingly get away with it. It could even lead to wars between Byzantium and other European Nations who keep sending Crusading armies to try and "free" the Holy Land from the Heretical Byzantines.

It could of course be possible that the Vatican and Byzantium work out their religious differences as at the time, no one thought that the schism between Western and Eastern Christianity would be centuries long like it was in OTL but I'm just stating something that might happen if that isn't the case.

When the Mongols DO arrive in the 1200's, I could see them engaging in some clashes with the Byzantines at first only to be paid off by them at times (the Byzantines did this with barbarian tribes back in the 4th century and beyond). Still, the Mongols might try to take Constantinople as it would almost certainly still be a super-wealthy city by this point but I can see the Byzantines successfully fending them off if that were to happen.

If they had survived as a strong empire till the 15th century, then I could see the Byzantines sending expeditions to the Indian Ocean for trade and perhaps even set up colonies only to end up clashing with the Muslims and Portugal.

Whether or not European nations discover the New World on time depends on their relations with Byzantium. If they have good relations with them and are allowed to use their lands to engage in trade, then the discovery and development of the New World is delayed as they wouldn't have as much incentive to find new routes or develop new lands. IF they have as poor relations with Byzantium as they did with the Turks on OTL, then nations such as Spain and Portugal will likely send expeditions to find other routes to the Far East only to "discover" the New World.

Either scenario would make things QUITE interesting but in either one, Byzantium would definitely survive as a major powers until the 17th century.
 
So your POD would be that both Venice and Genoa participate splitting the burden of transport to the intended target...Egypt
Pisa was a larger maritime power than Genoa in the early 1200's.
Between the three they could easily have managed the number of crusaders that did show up.
Instead of the 3 times the number that the organizers had contracted for, and why Venice went to the Richer prize of Constantinople instead of Egypt.
maybe after the fall of Constantinople, Morea makes the claim to be the Byzantine Empire.
Several years ago there was a Great TL, about Morea, becomeing the Morean Empire, and defeating the Ottomans. IIRC it was on SHWI.
 
Byzantine Empire

Asia Minor must be retained. By the 17th century, perhaps the European and Asiatic parts may go their separate ways.
 
maybe, the Byzantines don't lose the battle of Manzikert, and the Seljuks control the interior of Anatolia, while this Byzantium state controls Ionia, Greece, Trebizond, Constantinople and Thrace.
 
As Byzantium entered into the 16th,17th,18th and 19th centuary's it's gunna do what all empires do, decline. Is it gunna be a pray of Russian Imperialism, like OTL Ottomans. If the Habsburgs arent the European line of defence against the Turks are we gunna c a more powerful Habsburg dynasty? Are the Muslim states going to be more Autonomas than OTL. More Russian Influence in Serbia, Bulgaria, romania etc. Larger Russian Power base>? Habsburg-Russian power blocks, do we still get the rise of Nationlism and German and Italian states. What are the butterflies of Byzantium?
 
As Byzantium entered into the 16th,17th,18th and 19th centuary's it's gunna do what all empires do, decline. Is it gunna be a pray of Russian Imperialism, like OTL Ottomans. If the Habsburgs arent the European line of defence against the Turks are we gunna c a more powerful Habsburg dynasty? Are the Muslim states going to be more Autonomas than OTL. More Russian Influence in Serbia, Bulgaria, romania etc. Larger Russian Power base>? Habsburg-Russian power blocks, do we still get the rise of Nationlism and German and Italian states. What are the butterflies of Byzantium?

No Hapsburgs, probably no Russian Imperialism directed at the Bosphorus(allies of Byzantium and all). German and Italian states maybe... but the butterflies are too enormous to sum it up briefly.
 
Why no stronger Habsburgs?
The Spanish Branch had to put all its efforts into defeating them (the Ottomans) in the Med, and the Austrian Branch into defeating them in their march on Vienna. If those resources are going else where>?:eek:
 

Philip

Donor
Why no stronger Habsburgs?
The Spanish Branch had to put all its efforts into defeating them (the Ottomans) in the Med, and the Austrian Branch into defeating them in their march on Vienna. If those resources are going else where>?:eek:

The question isn't will the Habsburgs be stronger. It is will the Habsburgs be. Given that the POD will most likely be well before the Habsburgs rise to power, there is no reason to assume that they will.
 
Your challenge is to make the Byzantine empire last until the 16th century, and longer if you're really adventurous.
What re-forms, ASB's, butterflies or alliances would be nessisary to achieve this; and nothing like "a plauge wipes out every muslim in the world" and such.
The great problem was that you would have one great empourer who would conquer and do great things and then his son would be a pilock :eek:
Oh and a POD after 1070

Oo!! I've got it! The Eastern Empire keeps using (or revives the use of) AUC for its dating. Then they can be wiped out right after *Manzikert and it'll still be the 17th Century (or 18th).


Actually, given the dating system they actually used, (essentially, 'since creation') they survived well into the 60s (e.g. 69th century? don't remember the numbers off the top of my head any more.)
 
Oo!! I've got it! The Eastern Empire keeps using (or revives the use of) AUC for its dating. Then they can be wiped out right after *Manzikert and it'll still be the 17th Century (or 18th).


Actually, given the dating system they actually used, (essentially, 'since creation') they survived well into the 60s (e.g. 69th century? don't remember the numbers off the top of my head any more.)

weirdly I'm talking about AD dates
 
Oops, it has been four years....

....But if Byzantine Empire survived into the 20th century, its territory composed of Greece, Western Anatolia and Pontus or Greece and whole Anatolia, depending on the Byzantine-related TLs.
I imagine Elli Stai presenting the news from Constantinople, the imperial capital.
 
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The lack of understanding of the Byzantine Empire and its political/military situation is depressing.
EDIT: I only thought there was one page to this so I didn't read the next to pages. My apologies.
 
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I think best way for Rhomania to survive is to have good dynasties, and prevent the rise of the isaurian and Angelos dynasties. Also work with Kievan Russia, and other allies in the Balkans and form a orthodox alliance. With such an alliance there would be a stronger Orthodox presence and perhaps the Venetians won't try to be troublemakers.
 
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