AH Challange: Make Italy a colonial power in with England or Spain

[Guarnasco]

Note: it would be "in par" but I forgot the "par" part..... sorry

Aving a PoD anytime after the fall of Western Roman Empire, is still possible to make Italy, or any italian state, a great colonial power?

I think the maritime republics are good candidates to do sa well as Holland, but what do we need to do as well as England?

 

[Shadow Knight]

Maybe Columbus gets native Italian backing to go romping around the Atlantic. After a short stop to restock in say Spain or Portugal he goes on to 'discover' America.

After several expeditions by Columbus and other Italian navigators a series of islands are settled to provide way stops on the way to the great trade port of Nova Genoa (site of Veracruz) where the Italians trade an assortment of goods from Europe and elsewhere in exchange for gold and other goods native to the Americas.

 

[varyar]

The lack of an Atlantic coast could be a problem - Italy (Genoa, Venice, whoever) is going to have to stay in the good graces of whoever controls the Strait of Gibraltar to establish large, viable colonies in the New World.

Alternatively, Venice could go ahead and finance the Red Sea canal they contemplated, the one patterned after the ancient Pharaoh's canal.

Let's say Venice does this, and thus has an alternate route out of the Mediterranean. The problem is that it's more likely to establish outposts along the East African coast and in India than in the New World, isn't it?

Okay, alternative to the alternative

Step 1 - Italian states interested in the New World.
Step 2 - ???
Step 3 - Genoa and Venice found colonies in the Caribbean.
Step 4 - Profit!

 

[Guarnasco]

Step 1 - Italian states interested in the New World.
Step 2 - ???
Step 3 - Genoa and Venice found colonies in the Caribbean.
Step 4 - Profit!

step 2 likely Genoa helps Spain in the reconquista not only financially but also with a land expediton... gaining Gibiltair in exchange.

If the PoD remains in late reinassence the Papal States might also be a viable candidate, since Columbus asked founds for his expedition to, in the order:
1 Genoa
2 The Papal States
3 Castille-Aragon

 

[varyar]

step 2 likely Genoa helps Spain in the reconquista not only financially but also with a land expediton... gaining Gibiltair in exchange.

If the PoD remains in late reinassence the Papal States might also be a viable candidate, since Columbus asked founds for his expedition to, in the order:
1 Genoa
2 The Papal States
3 Castille-Aragon

Oh, man. So many ideas now... Genoese Gibraltar (or Gibilterra, rather)? Perfect!

And a Papal Cuba... I wonder what they'd name the cities?

 

[Ofaloaf]

step 2 likely Genoa helps Spain in the reconquista not only financially but also with a land expediton... gaining Gibiltair in exchange.

If the PoD remains in late reinassence the Papal States might also be a viable candidate, since Columbus asked founds for his expedition to, in the order:
1 Genoa
2 The Papal States
3 Castille-Aragon

Oh lord, a Papal States with even more secular power? Pity there's not smiley for shuddering.

 

[Shadow Knight]

The lack of an Atlantic coast could be a problem - Italy (Genoa, Venice, whoever) is going to have to stay in the good graces of whoever controls the Strait of Gibraltar to establish large, viable colonies in the New World.

Well they could conquer a series of cities and ports along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast of Morocco.

 

[Guarnasco]

Oh lord, a Papal States with even more secular power? Pity there's not smiley for shuddering.

'nuff said

 

[Rockingham]

Well they could conquer a series of cities and ports along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast of Morocco.

In addition to Gibraltar, sure.......

They may also sieze the Balearics, Madeira and Canary islands...much better to use up limited resources on then undefendable Morrocan ports.

The problem with Genoese power are twofold...much like Portugal, they have a limited population base to draw upon, but to an even lesser extent... and, much like Portugal, they are right next door to a vastly more powerful state(in military terms) which, as demonstrated by the Italian wars, can occupy Genoa with impunity.

I believe Venice is a rather better candidate, even though a Suez would would be difficult to defend, they have a march larger population base, strategic depth, and an all but untakeable capital...... whats more, they are rather less endangered by their next door neighbours.

 

[Shadow Knight]

In addition to Gibraltar, sure.......

They may also sieze the Balearics, Madeira and Canary islands...much better to use up limited resources on then undefendable Morrocan ports.

Meh, Gibraltar is overrated. It isn't like the Bosporus where you can close it off with some cannon or a chain, you've got to have a fleet to close of the Straights. If one of the Italian city-states (it wouldn't have to be Genoa but one of the other trade cities in Tuscany) took say Algiers or Oran, Tangiers, etc. and took only the cities not any of the countryside, then fortified it thenI'm sure they could do so with not too much trouble. A heavily fortified port city that has a powerful navy that can import a lot of mercenaries to help defend the city in times of need could stave off a siege almost indefinitely.

Now an island in the Canaries would be useful as a last stop to refill water, etc. I had given thought of this myself.

An Italian city-state making money hand over fist from trade with the New World and colonies in the Caribbean might be able to buy off, hire an army to defend them, or bribe other powers to interfere if say France tried to take them over.

 

[varyar]

In addition to Gibraltar, sure.......

They may also sieze the Balearics, Madeira and Canary islands...much better to use up limited resources on then undefendable Morrocan ports.

The problem with Genoese power are twofold...much like Portugal, they have a limited population base to draw upon, but to an even lesser extent... and, much like Portugal, they are right next door to a vastly more powerful state(in military terms) which, as demonstrated by the Italian wars, can occupy Genoa with impunity.

I believe Venice is a rather better candidate, even though a Suez would would be difficult to defend, they have a march larger population base, strategic depth, and an all but untakeable capital...... whats more, they are rather less endangered by their next door neighbours.

I won't argue that Venice is likely to overshadow Genoa in this situation. On the other hand, Portugal and the Netherlands (both small countries next to larger nations that overshadowed them militarily) still managed to carve out large colonial empires on three continents in OTL. A small Genoese empire in a single region such as the Caribbean isn't entirely ASB territory.

As for Venice, though - what would they claim? I keep pointing at the Caribbean mainly because numerous islands, many of them small, offers room to sneak them (and/or the Genoese) in. It just feels 'right' to me, at any rate.

Italian colonies in West Africa (maybe next door to the short-lived Brandenburger West African empire ) could be interesting, too.

 

[Tocomocho]

In addition to Gibraltar, sure.......

Why the heck is Gibraltar so important in this question? If you see the map a Medieval state that takes over Tangiers and Ceuta already has a safe route through he Straits. Portugal managed to have a presence on the Mediterranean because of this before the Iberian Union. Geograhically speaking, Tarifa seems actually more threatening...

They may also sieze the Balearics, Madeira and Canary islands...much better to use up limited resources on then undefendable Morrocan ports.

Certainly any maccaronesian archipelago (Madeira, Açores, Canaries, Cabo Verde...) would be a nice stopping place for a power with interest on the Americas. In the case of the Balearics I don't see the point, unless it is to provide manpower and secure dominance over the Western Mediterranean.

In the case of the "undefendable" Moroccan ports... well they are as defendable as the ones on the other shore I think... or actually more because Morocco allows less population and has been historically less tech advanced and thus less threatening in matter of sieges... Bear in mind that if that Italians occupy ports on the southern coast of Spain they are going to piss off the Spaniards, even if this is before the conclusion of the reconquista, because they see dominion over the Peninsula and restoration of the Visigothic Kingdom as their mission on History. And against the Spaniards, the pretext of taking lands from the infidel doesn't work. If that ports are just on the other coast, there is not only no problem, the Spanish actually could assist in its defence against any Moroccan try to take them back. Why everyone assume the relation between the two peninsulas must be bad? Castile and Genoa were very good buddies in OTL, and when Spain unified it not only continued, but erased the former Aragonese/Genoese rivalry...

The problem with Genoese power are twofold...much like Portugal, they have a limited population base to draw upon, but to an even lesser extent... and, much like Portugal, they are right next door to a vastly more powerful state(in military terms) which, as demonstrated by the Italian wars, can occupy Genoa with impunity.

Florence on stereoids would be an option. Maybe I'm too much influenced by Max's Chaos TL but I think Florence was actually on the way of taking over the Italian Peninsula before the Black Plague. It even managed to invade Corsica and Tunisia at some point, retaining positions there for some years.

I believe Venice is a rather better candidate, even though a Suez would would be difficult to defend, they have a march larger population base, strategic depth, and an all but untakeable capital...... whats more, they are rather less endangered by their next door neighbours.

Problem is that the Serenissima is too much East-oriented, and with some historic tendency to annoy everyone around her...

 

[basileus]

Note: it would be "in par" but I forgot the "par" part..... sorry

Aving a PoD anytime after the fall of Western Roman Empire, is still possible to make Italy, or any italian state, a great colonial power?

I think the maritime republics are good candidates to do sa well as Holland, but what do we need to do as well as England?

Ècchene n'artro...

 

[Dan1988]

And a Papal Cuba... I wonder what they'd name the cities?

Well, if Spain and France are anything to go by, . . . .

 

[Chengar Qordath]

I would say the key to making the Italian states colonial powers would be to give them enough security that they can afford to invest in overseas ventures rather than needing to constantly worry that the French/Spanish/Holy Roman Empire/Papacy/Ottomans/other Italians are about to attack them. Most countries didn't go for colonial ventures when they had bigger problems to worry about close to home.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I would say the key to making the Italian states colonial powers would be to give them enough security that they can afford to invest in overseas ventures rather than needing to constantly worry that the French/Spanish/Holy Roman Empire/Papacy/Ottomans/other Italians are about to attack them. Most countries didn't go for colonial ventures when they had bigger problems to worry about close to home.

i don't know the Dutch did a pretty good job with quite a few large nearby powers trying to cause them harm.

 

[Hapsburg]

Note: it would be "in par" but I forgot the "par" part..... sorry

Aving a PoD anytime after the fall of Western Roman Empire, is still possible to make Italy, or any italian state, a great colonial power?

I think the maritime republics are good candidates to do sa well as Holland, but what do we need to do as well as England?

The problem is that Italy doesn't have any Atlantic Ocean ports. However, if Genoa and the other Italian states formed some kind of confederation, and the federal government exerted control over colonies and military affairs, they could manage something.
Say, in the early 1400s, Genoa, Savoy, Pisa, Lucca, Parma, Tuscany, Milan, et al form a "Lombard Federation", and by the late 1400s, establish some city-holds on the Gibraltar Strait, and along the Moroccan Coast, some time before Spain plants the death-blow to Muslim Granada. In the early 1500s, they start a massive colonisation project in the New World, swallowing up some isles in the Caribbean, Florida, and maybe collecting some of the coast near the Guyana Highlands.

 

[Rockingham]

Why the heck is Gibraltar so important in this question? If you see the map a Medieval state that takes over Tangiers and Ceuta already has a safe route through he Straits. Portugal managed to have a presence on the Mediterranean because of this before the Iberian Union. Geograhically speaking, Tarifa seems actually more threatening...

Certainly any maccaronesian archipelago (Madeira, Açores, Canaries, Cabo Verde...) would be a nice stopping place for a power with interest on the Americas. In the case of the Balearics I don't see the point, unless it is to provide manpower and secure dominance over the Western Mediterranean.

In the case of the "undefendable" Moroccan ports... well they are as defendable as the ones on the other shore I think... or actually more because Morocco allows less population and has been historically less tech advanced and thus less threatening in matter of sieges... Bear in mind that if that Italians occupy ports on the southern coast of Spain they are going to piss off the Spaniards, even if this is before the conclusion of the reconquista, because they see dominion over the Peninsula and restoration of the Visigothic Kingdom as their mission on History. And against the Spaniards, the pretext of taking lands from the infidel doesn't work. If that ports are just on the other coast, there is not only no problem, the Spanish actually could assist in its defence against any Moroccan try to take them back. Why everyone assume the relation between the two peninsulas must be bad? Castile and Genoa were very good buddies in OTL, and when Spain unified it not only continued, but erased the former Aragonese/Genoese rivalry...

Florence on stereoids would be an option. Maybe I'm too much influenced by Max's Chaos TL but I think Florence was actually on the way of taking over the Italian Peninsula before the Black Plague. It even managed to invade Corsica and Tunisia at some point, retaining positions there for some years.

Problem is that the Serenissima is too much East-oriented, and with some historic tendency to annoy everyone around her...

True.... Ceuta and Mellila, certainly, would serve the same purpose as Gibraltar and a Balearic island...but the Spaniards aren't going to be happy if their vulnerable south coast is threatened by another power...not if they can help it.

Which is part of the reason why the Balearics would be important.... it would both weaken Spanish capacity to threaten Genoa and leave Spains East coast vulnerable at the same time.

Florence...yes, and the Chaos TL does have Italian colonial lands in the Atlantic, seems as if we've been beaten to it

If you look closely, I did say Suez canal... no reason Italy has to have Atlantic territory to be a colonial power anyway.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

i don't know the Dutch did a pretty good job with quite a few large nearby powers trying to cause them harm.

The Dutch certainly had their share of troubles with the Hapsburgs, French, and English, but the Italians were in a much worse position as far as constant threats to their homeland. The Dutch were usually able to play the French and Habsburgs off against each other, while the English never showed much of an interest in anything besides stealing some Dutch colonies.

 

[Guarnasco]

Ècchene n'artro...

poi contacce...

On the main topic:
WI insead of the historic genise alliance with Spain, the "Sperba" manages a more deep relationship with Great Britain?
The dogeship of Andrea Doria era seems a very good period to do it....