AH Challange: Germany Wins control of the seas in WW1

There are a number of rather important differences’ “winning” the race to the sea does for the Germans. Look at a map and project out the likely front, find its length and compare to historic. It shortens the Germans lines a more than minor amount.

Second despite the limited utility of the French ports it does provide the Germans with more options for light ship offensive action in the channel. Also with the ports in German hands it prevents the channel mine barrage from being created.

The British will be forced to put a great deal of light ship forces down there and the Germans having the ports will feed fears of a cross channel invasion. All of these are positives for the Germans.

Now to do what the first poster wanted I would say the Germans need a great deal more. France has to be taken out in 1914; it would be hard but not impossible. Start with the French 5th Army being pocketed and destroyed during the battle of the frontiers. With Lanrezac’s army destroyed it tips the balance in favor of the Germans and spin from there as you see fit. If the UK fights on the Germans with the French Atlantic ports will hold a key advantage over the British. Especially as unlike WW2 in WW1 the Germans have a real fleet. Raiders based out of the French ports will make life hell for the British.


In the end the Germans need for things to break there way far more than average; not impossible but a good deal of luck.

Michael
 
i was thinking of a royal navy mutiny after the failure to strike up the narrows in galipoli they did lose a lot of ships and men to accomplish squat... i suppose some sort of equally nasty north sea disaster would need to accompany this... maybe they support churchills plan to send monitors and bcs to the german coast to get their asses sunk
 
Miketr, I think the extra coastline would need the men the shorter trenchlines freed up. But in the longer term the demands these units and batteries for men and materiel would be an order of magnitude lower than if they were stationed on the western front trenches. This would free up replacement troops, guns and shells to be consumed elsewhere.

While this is all very worthy for the Germans gain sea control the GF needs to suffer a disaster or several unambigiuous defeats, and this will only come from general fleet action.

Bill, yes I'm still flogging the dead horse. I think that if I flog it enough it will come back to life, a bit like CPR.
 
Radical Thought

A thought occured to me relating to an AH novel I read (Burning Mountain - an Invasion of Japan story, pretty good). Anyway in the book one of the USN ships is equiped with Chem Warfare detectors which go off when the USAAF hits some Japanese gas sites on land and the gas drifts out to see in concentrations enought to alarms but not hurt anyone.

OK long story short. Could the German deploy poison gas at sea? I think this is probably ASB territory because -

I would imagine you get rapid spread of the gas to non-lethal levels at see

You have to get your enemy to steer into various suspcious colored clouds

Deployment is a nightmare. I know the germans used smoke in WWI to obscure movement, but couldn't tell you if this was purpose built machines or altening stack emmissions to create a cloud

Finally I assume that in watertight conditions a lot of ships have innate protections against gas. Although I assume the bridge (if it isn't too high) and observation posts for CNC would be more vunerable.

But assume you can deploy the gas, assume you can get the ships to steer into it, assuming it does penetrate at least partially...you might incapacitate any ship that steers into it.

One truely bizzare thought to go along with this - a ship that got gassed could be boarded! Arragh avast there and repell all boarders!

OK this is too ASB but it was fun.

Gemellus
 
I read somewhere that the N3 and G3 classes were supposed to be gas proof, so the RN was thinking about naval chem warfare post ww1.
 
depends how late in the war the gas is used and what chemicals are tried. Mustard gas is extremely persistant. By 1916 the Germans had gas shells in quantity I dont know how well those could be navalized though. Hitting a depot ship carrying that stuff would be awefully scary for both sides
 
I read somewhere that the N3 and G3 classes were supposed to be gas proof, so the RN was thinking about naval chem warfare post ww1.


Riain,

You're absolutely correct there. Nearly all late and post WW1 designs were "gas proof" due to fears of gas and other agents being used at sea. Hector Bywater's 1920s future history War in the Pacific book had both the US and Japan successfully using gas against warships.

Actual testing between th wars revealed the ability to hit ships with gas shells or bombs was far overblown and the effects of such hits greatly overstated. Ships can move after all, providing a breeze to waft gas away, and ships can easily wash themselves to remove more persistent agents.

The "gas proof" design attributes, or in USN parlance "Circle William", have been kept on more with an towards fallout than chemical weapons.


Bill

P.S. You're no longer flogging a dead horse, you're flogging the greasy spot that used to be the dead horse.
 
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Gas Attack Option

I thought a little about this and assuming the technical issues are possible how about this scenerio?

31 May 1915

1400 - British and German Light fleet units stumble into each other, partially witnessed by the Danish Ship NJ Fjord. Beatty orders his squadrons into battle, athough the 5th (Evan-Thomas) as in our TL misses the order due to almost criminal negligence.

1500 - Hipper moves south drawing the British Battle Cruisers South towards the German Battle Fleet and several dozen small apparently neutral steamers. Orders in Danish and in the open are given for the 'Danish' Ships to gather South of the on coming British.

1600 - Hipper and Beatty shell each other. Hipper is getting the better of the engagement and the 'Danish' ships are now almost due South of the British. British radio intercepts and sighting confirm the ships are neutral (they are not) and concentrate instead of hitting Hipper.

16:15 - The British battle squadron gets in range of Hipper and begins opening fire. The Danish ships are now evacuating into small launches, most lie directly in the path of the British BBs and BC, although the BC will reach the 'line' first

16:20 - Massive explosions rock the 10 odd Danish ships, which in fact have been packed with phosgene gas. Each ship carrying several tons. Huge clouds form directly in the path of the British Ships. Initially the British believe the Germans either sank the Danish ships or they are a diversion.

16:30 - Beatty's battlecrusiers enter the clouds of gas. Protected areas of the ship are at first relatively uneffected. But the Bridges and command and control centers are immediately put out of action. Ships begin to steer erratically and fire slackens.

16:40 - Secondary explosions from areas near the former Danish ships (rafts with gas and timers) go off and the clouds spread. Evan-Thomas's Fifth Battle Squadron tries to execute a turn but most of his ships disappear into the gas clouds.

1700 - Beatty's BC emerge from the cloud. Most ships are out of control. Men are dying and gas is now venting into the Engine compartments. Beatty is dead aboard teh Lion which is losing speed and locked in a sharp circle. Princess Royal, Tiger and Queen Mary are also helpless, losing speed with silent guns.

The 2nd BC Squadron has faired somewhat better. Only New Zealand is out of control. Parkeham and Indefatigable only partially entered the cloud. They have suffered loss of some control but some parts of the ships remain gas free. They have turned East and withdrawn from battle.

Evan Thomas Fast BBs have been hit hard. Barham, Warspite and Valient are all slowing tombs. Malaya has been only partially engulfed but her Captain is dead (Boyle) and because she is under steam, the main target of Hipper.

German fire has also been critical. They have had 42 hits on the British (as in our TL) and only suffered 5 in return (11 in our TL if you count just the bigger guns).

Now the 'Danish' crews in protective gear are motoring towards the Striken British Line. Some British DDs try to interviene but Hipper slows to drive them off. Soon crys of "Repell all borders" sound on the stricken British ships and the Germans try to put prize crews aboard.

There is no "Run to the North" now and Beatty has fallen ominously silent. Jellicoe signals the Admiralty at 1700 (approx the same as in our TL) that he is moving South to investigate.

1710 - Rear Admiral Hood's BC squadron is moving South at Best speed, but the German HSF and BC are almost stationary. It will be some time before Jellicoe can be certain where the Germans are.

17:30 - German marines secure control of Princess Royal and Tiger. British sailors scuttle the Queen Mary before the Marines can take control. Tow lines are already secured.

Fighting on the BBs is more difficult. Confusion, gas and gallantry make it tough going for the Germans. Hipper orders the Marines to secure the ships or sink them by 1800.

1800 - Hood is still out of contact with the Germans. Hipper gives the Marines more time, as they have secured control of the Warsprite. German fire sinks the Warsprite. The BCs are under town moving at 5 knots Southeast.

1830 - Light fleet units of the HSF detect Jellicoe. Tows are now attached to Valiant and Warsprite. Barham is scuttled or sunk. Hipper heads North towards Hood is because of some differences in this TL is well ahead of Jellicoe.

1900 - Hipper and Hood trade salvos. Hipper gets the best of the engagement. Hood radios his position to Jellico who turns slightly East, actually drawing away from Sheer's main BF which is now with the tow ships.

Sheer orders Hipper to continue East and draw Jellico away from his prizes. Sheer orders the BFto make best speed South East.

2000 - Night is falling and Jellicoe is still trying to catch Hipper who moves nimbly East North East.

2100 - Jellicoe is informed that the ships he is chasing are only the BCs and not the HSF as he believed. Hipper has the advantage of a lite Western sky and handles Hoods BC's roughly. Jellicoe has a speed disadvantage put he orders a South East turn hoping to cut Hipper off and salvage something.

2200 - Last shells exchanged. Hipper draws off for several hours than moves South East eluding Jellico.

0600 - Sheer is nearing port. Hipper has eluded Jellicoe.

June 2nd Last German Fleet units with prizes arrive. German 'prizes' are as follows :

2 BB, 2 BC, 3 CR, 4 LCR and 8 DDs.

Frankly this strikes me as ASB but it was fun to write!

Gemellus
 

The Sandman

Banned
Everyone in this thread, just go and read Operation Unicorn. It does a better job of thinking about this realistically than any of you have thus far. You can find recent chapters on Grey Wolf's board, and most of it is archived at CTT these days.
 
Germany winning sea control just is not a realistic goal, hence unrealistic thinking. Britian has the much bigger fleet and a geographic stranglehold on Germany, thus any chance of sea control requires a virtual miracle for Germany.
 
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