AH Challange: Battle of the Bulge a major German victory

Well First you have Hitler stop telling were the 2nd SS Panzer should run around to in France, pull the Forces out of Brittany and the Massif when the allies land at Marseilles and essentially begin a massive withdrawal east taking supplies with them, burning the land behind them.

This would lead to similliar conditions as the Battle of the Bulge, with the Germans in a much better position. You no longer have delays as the OKH transfers troops from Romania and East Prussia west, and the Germans may hold the Siegfried line and Aachen still.

That being said the allied positions may be considerably changed riding on their momentum, leading to a new battle. Perhaps this time Germany may not have to rely on capturing allied oil.

All that being said its very unlikely. even if you get the OKH and OKW to work together and win at the Bulge smashing all American and British Lines, something needs to be done about Patton coming to the rescue. If that is done and the victory is pushed and Brussels and Ghent are taken then you have a situation were the allied main lines are smashed, the allies in Eindhoven and other strips of Holland can be cleaned up by forces there when surrounded, and Germany may push far, with alot of luck and maybe Kesserling striking across the Alps into the Rhone Valley we have a German Strategic and Overwhelming Tactical Victory.

That being said this all assumes that my original retreat theory in France saves the Germans as much supplies as they lost in OTL.
 
Hrm, well Axe has it about right I think but I think it rests on Herr Shicklegruber & co. being more rational, good luck with that ;) Perhaps just having them go with the Small Solution instead might even do the trick, but even if we posit that all that happens, it probably just ends up with Germany lasting longer enough eat a nuke or three. :eek:
 
Yeah, Once the Soviets Take Berlin *inevitable at this point* , the Allies want to stop the Soviets from occupying as much as possible, that makes the Big Red Button look much more appetizing to stop the other red menace.
 
i would also agree a more rational retreat out of france would help. hitler cannot send the panzers on the death raid at mortain and averanches. an orderly pull back first to the seine (which is a strong river line) then the siegfried line would leave them in a better tactical position to strike the allies in the winter. i think the pincer move around achaan that model suggested could be quite successful as opposed to going all out for antwerp
 

Markus

Banned
plan and conduct this as raid, not an offensive. the allies have more and more mobile divisions, they are better trained and equipped and the have air supremacy. so hit their frontline division hard and fast and get out before the weather clears. and than do it again somewhere else - if possible.
 
i would also think their offensive would be better spent against the brits who at this point have zero infantry replacements avail... they would have to break up a lot of divisions late in the war just keep the ones on the line at full strength
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Title gives you the idea

Your pod must be after d-day


The easiest POD of the entire war. Cancel the damned thing completely.

Move ALL the forces used to the East, as well as most of the II SS Panzer Corps. Slow down the Red Army as far from Germany proper for as long as you can so you can evacuate more of the East Prussian civilians and generally move as many people as possible to where they will fall under the control of the Western Allies.

There was NO question in the Heer High Command of what was going to decend on Germany and on the German civilian population when the Soviets, especially the NKVD & the commissars, arrived. Hold the Red Army as well as you can while sending everyone as close to the Rhine as possible, including military hospital cases, and whatever forces you can save.

Then disengage as well as you can in the West without making it utterly obvious and give as much of the country to the guys who give candy bars to the kids as you can.

If you have ANY doubt of how much of a victory this would represent read a few of the accounts on the final approach into the Reich by Stalin's troops.
 
The easiest POD of the entire war. Cancel the damned thing completely.

Move ALL the forces used to the East, as well as most of the II SS Panzer Corps. Slow down the Red Army as far from Germany proper for as long as you can so you can evacuate more of the East Prussian civilians and generally move as many people as possible to where they will fall under the control of the Western Allies.

There was NO question in the Heer High Command of what was going to decend on Germany and on the German civilian population when the Soviets, especially the NKVD & the commissars, arrived. Hold the Red Army as well as you can while sending everyone as close to the Rhine as possible, including military hospital cases, and whatever forces you can save.

Then disengage as well as you can in the West without making it utterly obvious and give as much of the country to the guys who give candy bars to the kids as you can.

If you have ANY doubt of how much of a victory this would represent read a few of the accounts on the final approach into the Reich by Stalin's troops.

Hitler's not going to do that, that would mean he'd have to admit his side is losing the war.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Hitler's not going to do that, that would mean he'd have to admit his side is losing the war.

Undoubtedly. Hitler had also come to the conclusion, based on many of his later rantings, that the Volk deserved to be punished for proving themselves unable to fulfill Hitler's vision.

Nevertheless, it does not alter the fact that the ONLY way to make the Bulge into a major Heer victory is to never engage in the battle. There was no chance of the attack achieving its military aims, given its lack of logistical tail and available manpower. It succeeded, to the degree it did succeed, exactly as long as the low clouds lasted and kept the overwhelming power of the Allied air forces on the Ground.

As soon as the clouds broke, so did the offensive & that was BEFORE the Heer forces left the damned forest. Once they had gotten onto open ground the entire force would have been hammered flat, if necessary by the 8th Air Force and RAF Bomber Command, which could devote several THOUSAND heavy bombers to the mission.

Overall the Bulge was the last great act of stupidity by a country foolish enough to let a corporal run its army.
 

burmafrd

Banned
cal, you put that as well as it possibly could be. Germany was just too spent to really be able to attack and win by that time. Even if they had saved more of the forces from France they still had the absolute show stopper in that they just did not have the fuel anymore.
 
Top