AH Chalenge: Latest POD for CSA victory

Breaking with The Herd a Bit, 3rd July 1863 ...

George Pickett isn't an Idiot, And Thus Manages to Keep his Lines Dressed with Respect to Pettigrew ...

The Army of The Potomac is Forced to Retire from The Field in Disgrace, While Robert E. Lee Continues to March his Army Northeast; The War Ends When Lee Beats George Meade to The Defenses around Washington!

:eek:

STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD. <SNIP>

So Although Your Signature Says You Are A Libertarian You Are Really A Grammar And Caligraphy Nazi?

Suddenly, there is the wail of sirens. Several squad cars screech to a halt, and several tough looking, brawny cops, armed with tasers and billy clubs and led by wormyguy, who is carrying a baseball bat, get out and begin approaching ZaphodBeeblebrox. In the background, stirring theme music begins. A deep bass voice sings the lyrics...

The Deep-Voiced Singer said:
THE GRAMMAR POLICE ARE ON THE CASE...
IF YOU MIS-SPELL THEY'RE IN YOUR FACE!
SO BEWARE, ALL YOU BENIGHTED SOULS
NEVER ASK FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS
IT TOLLED WHILE YOU WERE ASLEEP IN CLASS
NOW THE GRAMMAR POLICE ARE GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS."

The stirring theme music ends, and the Grammar Police begin beating and tasering ZaphodBeeblebrox. After severely chastising the miscreant, the Grammar Police get in their cars and drive away. Wormyguy laughs maniacally. Roll credits. Fade to black.
 

wormyguy

Banned

So Although Your Signature Says You Are A Libertarian You Are Really A Grammar And Caligraphy Nazi?

I Was Actually Lying. I Am Actually A Member Of The National Socialist Grammar Worker's Party. I Am Going To Incinerate In The Fires Of Grammar Hell All Who Choose To Have All Of Their Posts In This Format!

:eek:
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=68277

:rolleyes:


STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.
STOP CAPITALIZING THE FIRST LETTER OF EVERY WORD.

To Be Fair, He Doesn't Capitalize the First Letter of Every Word.
 
How much of this thread actually has to do with the civil war at this point? Is most of it about the grammar socialist?
 
How much of this thread actually has to do with the civil war at this point? Is most of it about the grammar socialist?
Probably ...

Suffice it to Say, The South had Two Mutually Incompatible Goals:

Stage an Invasion, At The Start of Each and Every Campaigning Season, To Keep The North off Balance, So they couldn't Just Steam-Roll them, And Wage a Strong Defense, To Make The Governments of Europe Believe them to be The Aggrieved Party ...

Unless a POD Allows them to Successfully do BOTH of those, The CSA's Shelf-Life, Isn't Likely to be Significantly Longer than in OTL!
 
Breaking with The Herd a Bit, 3rd July 1863 ...

George Pickett isn't an Idiot, And Thus Manages to Keep his Lines Dressed with Respect to Pettigrew ...

The Army of The Potomac is Forced to Retire from The Field in Disgrace, While Robert E. Lee Continues to March his Army Northeast; The War Ends When Lee Beats George Meade to The Defenses around Washington!

:eek:

I would concur, I think if the Confederates won Gettysburg, it would have given the North a punch in the nose they needed for the CSA to have the upper hand. IIRC, some do believe that if the Confederates won at this point, Great Britain, along with a few other powers, might have tried to broker a peace between the two. Even if that happened, it would mean the CSA would stay a nation and thus meet the conditions of a victory. Even if there was no foreign intervention, it would hurt Northern morale and possible force some powers that be in the USA to the bargaining table.
 
Which, by definition, needs Lee or Johnston or even both to deal with Sherman and Grant with enough effectiveness to cost Lincoln the Election.

For Johnston this means, at the least, preventing the fall of Atlanta before the election but to be absolutely certain of securing his aims and the downfall of Mr. Lincoln Johnston has to achieve a clear cut victory over Sherman. He could do this at Dalton and Resaca if Joe Wheeler does his job but even if Wheeler actually does his job victory there would only be defensive and even though Leonidas Polk's Army has joined in Johnston's defensive line Johnston still does not have the manpower available to him to secur any major, campaign ending victory over Sherman, even if Hood doesn't cock up the Cassville assault (whether his reasons for doing so are sensible or not). Sherman has the ability to reinforce in a way that Johnston can only dream of so any damage done by him will be temporary and as long as Sherman is able to continue his advance and Johnston is seen to be retreating then even if Sherman is getting mauled on a few occasion it wont turn the election against Lincoln.

For Lee it means nothing less than the defeat of Grant and the expulsion of the Federals from Virginia once more. Grant will just keep coming and coming and coming until he comes out on top and the people in the Union are not so nieve that they would not realise this. The only way for the election to be lost in Virginia is to have Grant so utterly defeated by Lee that he will have to withdraw out of Virginia and rebuild his Armies and that's close to ASB.

Political Victory for the Confederacy in 1864 resides in the abilities of the Generals in the field to do enough damage to the Federal Armies and have enough success that opinions of the Northern People will turn in favor of ending the war and negotiating for peace as there is no way at this stage of the war that Britian or France would ever recognise at wounded and dying 1864 Confederacy.

The only hope of the Confederacy in 1864 for a political victory over the Union is the northern people being war weary and wanting peace but this can only occur in 1864 if Lee and Johnston can be much more successful against Grant and Sherman and that is more or less an impossibility.

While in 1864 the Union was certainly better off the the Confederacy, that is certainly not to say that the North wasn't war-weary. At the start of the year the country had already seen well over 100,000 dead, record levels of taxation in addition to unprecedented levels of government debt, had lived through conscription riots the previous summer, and yet for all that faced an enemy, their fellow countrymen, who showed no signs of giving up the fight. All hopes were now pinned on the new star Generals, Grant and Sherman. However, spring 1864 and Grant's campaign in northen Virginia proved a tremendous blow to Union morale. In six weeks of fighting, the North lost another 60,000-odd men and yet Lee and his army are now firmly entrenched in front of Petersburg. It was this failure that led to the Democratic surge that summer and the real risk that Lincoln would be thrown out on his butt come November.

It was the fall of Atlanta that saved his political career, so the latest possible POD that allows for an independent CSA would be if Sherman is halted before taking Atlanta. How realistic that is, however, is certainly debatable.
 
Rather than make a poll similar to this thread, I should revive it.....

---------

The primary issue with any Politically Motivated POD is that not only does the CSA have to be holding Atlanta (or the Shenandoah, or whatever) for the Presidential Election, but they also have to be holding a whole lot of ground by the time of the Democrat's (who may or may not be McClellan) inauguration.

This is demonstrated by an ASB though experiment. The ASB's give the election to McClellan without changing anything else militarily. When March 4th rolls around, what shape is the CSA in? Well....the Army of the Tennessee is still gutted by Thomas, Johnston is still somewhere in mid-North Carolina trying to halt Sherman's march, and Lee is still slowly starving and being near-outflanked at Petersburg. This is assuming, of course, that during Lincoln's last few months the USA is not even more aggressive than OTL and outflanks Lee anyway.

At this point, it would be quite ASB for McClellan to not pursue the war to completion. Or whoever else would be elected - even if they ran on a strong Peace Platform. This was also demonstrated in a lovely little work (book) called The Fourth Battle of Winchester.

So whatever PoD you forward, which presumably will involve a Democratic Presidential victory, the CSA must still be alive (enough) and kicking (somewhat) when that person is actually inaugurated.


It is this reason that makes me skeptical of a PoD in the Atlanta campaign. It may be possible to have Johnston keep Sherman away from Atlanta until November, but no matter what happens he will not destroy Sherman's army. Not even with a idealized Peachtree Creek everything-working-like-it-does-in-Johnston's-best-dreams victory. Given this, Sherman will keep attacking, and so eventually through straight-up attrition he will win. Frankly I am even doubtful of keeping Sherman out of Atlanta until November; but if that is possible, it is surely impossible to keep him out until March.
 
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