Age of War

California, when the gold rush comes, is inevitably going to attract a lot of Americans, as in OTL. However an independent California that knows about its substantial gold reserves suddenly has an interest in staying independent.

It's by no means sure, but it seems possible that California ITTL, having been independent for a few years, might not be the lawless no-man's-land that it was OTL around this time. This gives the Californian government a chance to attempt to regulate the mining.

If the Californian government believes it can manage the extraction of the gold in the east, it's possible that there might be some resistance to American domination – not that it can't eventually happen, because I think an America with any sort of Pacific coast in Oregon will probably come to dominate California – but with the native elites opposed to it, it might not be the cakewalk it was OTL.



Another thing to be considered is the role of Argentina ITTL. Without American and British hegemony over trade, Argentina might be able to develop more freely than it was able to in OTL, though this probably won't have any impact on world events until maybe the 1880s or '90s.


Its a good point on California, especially until the US gets a trans-continental railway as its very, very difficult for them to reinforce the west coast. If there is a war with Britain or a civil war then there could be a desire to regain independence. [Since there could be strong parallels with the ARW - a distant land imposing taxes and also leaving it exposed to attack as they can't militarily support it very easily.

Another factor with a stronger Mexico still holding neighbouring areas. Will the US be willing and able to limit Mexican immigration or could there be a significant increase in the Latin population, especially with them still holding the southern part of the region, giving them a stepping stone into the central region?

Steve

PS I just thought. Historically a huge number of people were attracted to California by the gold rush. Including a lot of British. Could be even more given the unrest in Britain itself. With the tension between Britain and the US would there possibly be attempts by the Americans to restrict settlement from Britain, in the US in general and California in particular. With a potential third element with Irish immigration depending on what happens there.
 

corourke

Donor
Its a good point on California, especially until the US gets a trans-continental railway as its very, very difficult for them to reinforce the west coast. If there is a war with Britain or a civil war then there could be a desire to regain independence. [Since there could be strong parallels with the ARW - a distant land imposing taxes and also leaving it exposed to attack as they can't militarily support it very easily.

The more I think about this, the more it seems that the US won't be able to hold onto the west coast ITTL. Any time the US goes to war with Britain before the transcontinental railroad, the west coast will probably fall.

Or has the British navy already weakened so much that they can't stop the US from reinforcing the west coast?
 
The more I think about this, the more it seems that the US won't be able to hold onto the west coast ITTL. Any time the US goes to war with Britain before the transcontinental railroad, the west coast will probably fall.

Or has the British navy already weakened so much that they can't stop the US from reinforcing the west coast?

corourke

That would be very difficult as without a canal at Panama it could only be reinforced by sea via Cape Horn. This is still quicker and cheaper than overland, especially for heavy equipment. However would mean a hell of a long supply line in the war, passing by British bases in the S Atlantic where even sailing ships would have problems operating without a nearby base for the US.

I think your right in the assumption. If some major crisis comes before a trans-continental railway, most especially a war with a Britain that will for the near future [at least] maintain its naval and industrial lead.

From what GW has said about the problems in Britain and change of leadership it sounds like relatively little internal fighting and destruction. As such would expect that the bulk of the fleet and industrial infrastructure has been lost. More a question of a period of disorganisation and disruption leaving Britain with unclear leadership in international affairs for a while. Coupled with possibly [probably?] greater emphesis on internal matters and social and economic change which means that less attention on foregin relationships. [Might also be important as to how the new government in London and the various colonial populations view each other. Ideas of an imperial federation would be a bit early now, given the technology, but might set the scene for something later on.;)]

Steve
 
10

Benjamin, thank you for your cogent analysis - I can see few flaws in it

Mexico's best strength is as a POTENTIAL enemy - once it becomes a real one, its a paper tiger in many respects, not least because its unable to concentrate its forces in more than one direction at once. It shouldn't be forgotten that to his contemporaries, Santa Anna's ability to raise an army to defend Mexico City in OTL after his first army had been destroyed was on a par with 1944 observers seeing Hitler raising a significant force for the Battle of the Bulge. In desperate straits with a charismatic leader it might be done, in normal circumstances the army would be hard-pressed just to muster enough forces to launch a viable attack in one single direction

A very good point about slavery - without the same degree of Northern territories free of slavery, the Northern states are going to be extra wary about the South colonising and incorporating additional states. It won't, I don't think, change the patterns of settlement much, but make them more heated, and Fremont's election will only serve to exacerbate this and lead to an earlier civil war

Cuba I can't really see going the way of a filibustere, simply because enough support will never be forthcoming. There WILL be attempts to buy it, and there MAY be some failed attempts to seize it, and when the ACW does break out Spain is going to be a more formidable enemy than in OTL

France also is going to have a different view of things than in OTL - it has no Mexican adventure, it has latent rivalry with Britain which has strong connections with Mexico. Things may well falll out in a very strange fashion

If they DO do so, then it will also presage a European war since rivalries across the Atlantic cannot be kept separate from those within Europe

Britain is antagonistic to the Union, whilst friendly to Mexico. Spain is antagonistic to Mexico whilst also hating the Southern states. France is antogonistic to Britain whilst historically friendly to the Union.

By 1858 one could see a trans-Atlantic war where Britain backs the CSA in alliance with Mexico, but is faced off by the USA, France and Spain. As this spreads to Europe, Germany sides with Britain and continental war breaks out

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
11

Frémont is both a Manifest Destiny fanatic, as son-in-law of Thomas Hart Benton, and someone with strong anti-slavery views.
His election for the newly-formed Republican Party in 1856 will tear a hole in US politics, and complicate international relations.

Britain under Disraeli's premiership, a man coming to his prime earlier than OTL due to the upheavals of 1848 and the influence of the Prince Consort / Regent, will have developed as a mercantile power, despite the upheavals, and the ongoing civil war in Ireland. The franchise will have been extended, social reforms enacted, but one does not derail the economy of the leading industrial power, and certainly not deliberately.

I am looking at Albert I coming into his majority as the conflict rises up, and being desirous of making his mark. Even if the sovereign's power has been reduced vis-a-vis OTL 1850s, in going publicly against his father, King Albert will be able to give his backing to the more warlike elements in the ruling coalition, and swing people behind the merchants' backing for the South, rather than for the overtly anti-slavery Union. It should not be too hard - whilst the North appears to have morality on its side, it represents the continuity of state, and the USA is a recent enemy, and not forgiven for being so, especially with their coup in California.

Thus, the interventionist powers create a World War which pits against each other, to put it crudely :-

-1- The USA, France, Spain
-2- Britain, the CSA, Mexico, Germany

- - -

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Leistungsfähiger Amerikan (were you someone else once?) you definitely raise some good points :)

Having the civil war break out around 1858 should allow the South to retain a degree of balance against the Union; whilst increased militarisation will certainly have occurred it will be somewhat more evenly spread, although the Union fleet is likely to be larger, not least because when the civil strife breaks out, the Union is the commander-in-chief of mobile forces and can order them home to loyal ports.

British naval dominance may well not look all that overwhelming at this period, because even historically France had a pretty strong fleet. Here, the Orleanists remain, there is no break in naval development, and the arms race with the newly-unified Germany has focused their minds. Having said that, the Anglo-American War has likely made of the British fleet a more mobile and veteran force, and given a qualitative advantage to the British.

The French and the Spanish, though, would be allied with the Union, and in combination would pose a definite threat to British naval dominance. That said, unified Germany has a fleet of some standing and France will have to retain a strong enough force in European waters to counter and potential threat.

I think the idea of Russia intervening on the Union's side here makes a good deal of sense. There has been no Crimean War, for one thing, and Franco-Russian relations are not at any real low ebb (not least because in an Orleanist king, the Tsar sees an equal of ancient bloodline rather than as in OTL a parvenue Bonaparte). A Franco-Spanish-Russian alliance in Europe, facing off against an Anglo-German one would certainly be interesting !

Whether the Ottomans, or Egypt, come into this is questionable. Russia's immediate ambitions in the Principalities could well already have been achieved short of war, and the Holy Places row over Jerusalem is likely not to rise so high in the ATL. However, for every conflict averted and every argument that doesn't happen, the law of averages usually state that something else does instead. But these do not need to include the same protagonists, involved in the same way.

If Russia has taken greater advantage of the collective post-1848 headache, then the Ottomans may very well be in the Russian camp (as per Unkiar Skelessi) and unmolested by their neighbours. Egypt is in transition, after the deaths of Mohammed Ali and Izmail and a period of weaker rule. Said is coming into his own, but its some way back and whilst France and Britain both have interests in Egypt, perhaps it is to a united Germany that Egypt looks, whilst covering its bases with Russia.

It would thus be very much in both Istanbul's, and Cairo's interests to remain neutral, and certainly in the first stages of the war I don't see anything to challenge this. Russia has Germany to fight, and Austria to look at.

Austria, for its part, is weakened over OTL by having seen a united Germany emerge from 1848, and an independent Milan under French protection. However, Milan actually provides in a curious irony a barrier to Piedmont-Sardinia's irredentist ambitions, and makes Venice safer under Austrian auspices. Of course, this advantage over OTL won't be at all obvious in Vienna, but does exist. In another curious irony, it is to both Austria's and France's advantage to see Italy remain divided and not unify - Austria because it protects their holdings, and their client states, France because it protects their direct say in the peninsular, and how this is manifested in Milan and in Rome, with the Papacy.

However, whilst sharing common goals, they have a definite rivalry for the play of the power they both wish to see exercisable within Italy, and are hardly likely to come together due to this. Whilst many in Vienna also smart over exclusion from the rest of Germany, there are also many who see the final line of that story as having now been written and that it would be foolish to try to force a revision when its all over and done with.

I certainly see Austria's position at this stage of the conflict as being one where they wish to avoid any entanglements, and where they will look to their own interests, and protect these, rather than seek to involve themselves in external conflict.

- -- -
Theatres

In a war with the sides outlined above there would be several immediately identifiable theatres

In N America

-- 1. Oregon borders, along the Colombia River and pretty much bounded by the Rockies
-- 2. California, where Mexico can launch assaults from the South, and Britain by navy from North or East
-- 3. The Mid-West, where both British and American forces are going to be light, but with Indian allies, the Great Lakes, and some important trading cities there will certainly be campaigns
-- 4. New England, where the main British offensive/defensive effort is going to be concentrated, and where the US also is going to be able to deploy forces in number
-- 5. The Great Plains, where CSA and USA forces, light in number and with Indian allies, are going to clash in their Western borderlands
-- 6. The Ohio, where the trans-Appalachian Southern states and the Old North-West of the Union are going to clash across and upon the rivers and where a lucky or particularly skilful general could turn the flank of their opponent and inflict a decisive defeat
-- 7. Mason-Dixon, where the main US and CS armies are going to be manoevring and clashing, where naval support from their fleets and those of their allies could well prove decisive in localised conflicts, and where a battle for blockade supremacy is going to be fought
-- 8. The Caribbean etc, where the combined fleets of the CSA (such as it is), Mexico and Britain will initially hold sway, but where naval task forces from France, Spain and the USA will be attempting to challenge this supremacy

In Europe

-- 9. The Anglo-French sea border, also including the civil war in Ireland, as well as Spanish and potential Russian involvement in this theatre
-- 10. The Franco-German border, also including the possibility of it spilling into Belgium or Holland-Luxembourg
-- 11. The Russo-German border where the main Russian effort is going to be concentrated, and where both nations will fight each other navally in the Baltic for control of the sea

And considering

-- 12. The Baltic, White Sea etc where British naval taskforces may well be sent to challenge Russian forces, Russian control
-- 13. The Mediterranean, where British naval taskforces will be challenging the Spanish and French, and probably also Russian forces to be found there
-- 14. The N Atlantic, where both alliances in full will engage in commerce raiding, trade protection and the hunting down of each other's forces
-- 15. S Atlantic, Indian Ocean, Pacific etc, where naval forces from the maritime powers will engage in colonial raiding, small-scale landings, support for native rebellions, and commerce interception
-- 16. The Far East, where Britain, increased in strength after the Anglo-American War, will be able to take the war to Russia with raids into the Sea of Okhotsk, and potentially involve China and Japan in goings-on in this theatre

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Steve and corourke thanks for the debate you had whilst I was still writing my previous replies at home! I'll certainly consider all the points raised, and will be very interested in what you think of those I posit myself

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
GW

I can see a number of interesting questions and potential points. Off the top of my head:

a) The Britain-Mexico-CSA alliance is going to be a bit fragile. The CSA is probably still going to look in the longer term to expand westward at Mexican extent while the Mexicans might even have desires to reclaim Texas. Similarly elements in Britain are going to be unhappy with an alliance with the CSA.

b) In N America it depends on how much stronger the US will be than OTL and how much weaker Britain will be otherwise its no contest, unless Britain has to contribute its main effort in Europe. Also on an associated point, after the last war has the US diverged its revenue from being so heavily reliant on tariffs. If not it will have real problems funding a long war as apart from the fact so many trading partners are tied up in the conflict even a partial blockage will do a hell of a lot of damage. [It could be relying a lot more on taxes on the Californian gold but that could be risky as it will make the west coast pretty unhappy].

c) In the east a lot will depend on the situation in Poland. There was unrest in Poland about Russian domination so the Poles might support German forces, especially if a more liberal Germany is willing to offer them more freedom. Also, presuming no other butterflies then since the Crimean war hasn't occurred then the Russian army is still largely a basically Napoleonic force.

d) In the west I don't think you have mentioned the situation in the Netherlands? Has Belgium become independent or is there still a united kingdom? If the latter it could be either a powerful state or one gravely weakened by discontent. Either way it will play a role because of the stragetic position of the state.

e) Presumably Britain is still the predominant industrial power? Not sure how France will be developing. Its avoided some of the instability and regime changes and the Orleanist regime was pretty liberal so might be more heavily developed but could be more conservative? Not sure how Germany will be developing in comparison, or the US for that matter.

f) What sort of state is Spain in? OTL the conflicts started in 1833 and its roughly half way between the 2nd and 3rd at the moment, having just checked it on Wiki.;)

h) Presuming no one reinforces it quickly any remaining rebellion in Ireland will probably be crushed pretty quickly as it becomes a much greater problem in the circumstances of a general war.

Stevep

PS Nearly forgot. What is the state of play in Germany? Presumably a fairly decentralised monarchy? Still a fair bit of power and influence for the various kingdoms and free states. Could give a lot of flexibility but also make co-ordination pretty difficult at times.
 
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corourke, regarding California I don't think it has the timescale available for what you suggest - until the settlement of the Anglo-American War (ie Mexican-American War) it is in flux, and 1848 occurs pretty soon after this, whilst it is still trying to find its feet as an independent state, and whilst many Americans, including the mass of immigrants into California, don't believe that it has any long-term viability as an independent state. Additionally to this, the USA is also keen to act straight away whilst Britain is still distracted by internal disorder.

I don't think that the independent government of California has time to properly quantify the reserves it is sitting on, much less actually be able to put them to use. Remember, in OTL, California was a bone of contention between Mexico and US settlers BEFORE any of the gold was discovered.

The main US trail is going to be via the Great Salt Lake (since the Southern route remains Mexican) but the build-up of US sympathisers in California in this period is going to come from independent expeditions, of which there were a great many in the 1840s. In terms of actual military forces, a column or two via this route ought to be sufficient given that once they arrive they can recruit from among the American community.

I don't see the British naval position in the Western Pacific being as dominant as people seem to think it will be - even if they have the monopoly of warships, these are going to be relatively small, and not carry much in the way of Marines, certainly not this far out, whilst land forces further North are going to be a relatively finite resource that they won't waste on ferrying into combat against superior American land forces.

IIRC the main route for many of those who flocked to California in OTL was over the Central American isthmus, either via the riverine route through Nicaragua to ships on the coast, or the railway building in Panama. Others of course came round Cape Horn, all in addition to those going overland. In the period we are looking at, it is easier in a time of peace to imagine masses of Americans going this way, with other refugees etc from Europe following in smaller numbers. Whilst I see US immigrants to California as likely to remain loyal to the idea of the USA, I don't see the same for refugee British and the idea of Britain - its what they're running away from.

I'm not sure that Mexican immigration into the USA is going to be much of a worry at this stage - Mexico still has the Southern "New Mexico" lands, and has the accompanying problems with the Apache etc. Much of these lands are sparsely populated, and defeating the Indians and securing what settlements there are would take a definite period of time.

In the war I outline, British warships in the Pacific will certainly have their French and Spanish counterparts, and there are likely to be some few Russian, even German, ships too. Britain probably has the largest force, since its the only one that already fought a war there, but France is going to be as able to reinforce the theatre with the smaller warships best suited for it as is Britain. (Think Indian Ocean in 18th century through Napoleonic wars)

Best regards
Grey Wolf
 
1858-9

This is the key time for the timeline, with the Global War breaking out. Maybe instead of launching straight into it, one can look at some characters.

Obvious ones are the political ones :-

Great Britain
- Regent Prince Albert, retiring upon the majority of his son
- King Albert I, attaining his majority
- Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, already something of a veteran in this position

France
- King Ferdinand I, aged in his late 40s

USA
- President John C Frémont

Who would be Frémont's running mate ? Stephen A Douglas ? Lincoln is not important enough at this time, and Douglas is at his peak.
- - -

Beyond this, one can assume that the same cohort of military leaders that rose to prominence in the OTL Mexican-American War would have done so in this ATL's Anglo-American / Mexican-American War.

- Robert E Lee
- Jefferson Davis
etc

In fact, maybe John C Breckenridge is president of the CSA, and Jefferson Davis one of its generals

On the Union side, Winfield Scott, having a few years on his OTL counterpart of 1862, may well be the active commander of forces in the field


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Russo-British Tensions or Russo-German ones ?

Could be both, of course.

Regarding Germany (just to do things in reverse order!) the fact that it is born of a Liberal uprising does not mean that this is what it has continued to be. The Emperor is the King of Prussia, and much of the military infrastructure of the united state will be Prussian-led. Whilst diplomacy, and the navy, are going to be more universal, drawing from many other sources than Prussia, the dominance of the Prussian army is going to have a corroding effect over time. Add to that, the likely power struggles between the Emperor in Berlin (he wouldn't move) and the parliament in Frankfurt (they wouldn't move) and you have far from a Liberal paradise. In fact, since of course it is a federal union, the Prussian organs of state continue to exist, and the Emperor may very well use THEM to achieve his ends in opposition to the federal parliament in Frankfurt. There would definitely be arguments over where the balance of power lies between the states and the federal authority, as well as between the head of state and the federal executive. Who cotrols cabinet appointments, who appoints the federal Chancellor, who decides what the federal army does, as opposed to what the Prussian, or Bavarian, or Hannoverian army does ?

For differing reasons, both sides of the argument will see France as the natural enemy, the tensions, war scare and words of 1848-9 have not been forgotten, and both sides may well see war as being both a chance to bring some sort of national unity and heal the wounds, and also to advance their own causes. In the latter, one side will be more right than the other - but which ?

The Russian Empire has to be alarmed at the appearance of a united German state on its Eastern borders, and whilst in 1848-9 taken up with putting down the Hungarians (motivated not least by the Hungarians links to the Poles) and later by securing the upper hand in their relationship with the Ottomans over the Principalities, Russia by the late 1850s is free to turn its attention to worrying matters elsewhere.

At the same time, it has a somewhat different than OTL rivarly with Britain in Central Asia, not least because of the survival of an independent Sikh Empire (owing to Britain's distraction over the American War).

Here is a note on Khiva from something I wrote years ago ;-
General Perovsky in Autumn 1839 attempted an anti-slavery incursion into Khiva but was driven back by the terrible Winter losing over 1000 men. Soon after that a couple of British officers prevailed upon the Khan of Khiva to free all slaves of Russian origin, in order to remove the excuse for Russia intervening in the Khanate.
- - -
A Russian strategist a couple of decades later remarked that although Asia would not start a war, it would both stoke up tension before one that was fought for another spark, and lead to a major new theatre if fought on India's frontiers


Now, none of that is going to have changed, but if the Russians can launch an incursion at the end of the 1830s, then their 1850s-1860s invasions of Khiva, Bokkhara and Kokhand could occur somewhat earlier than OTL, whilst Britain as such is not in a position to do much about them, and instead of then focussing on Afghanistan, Russia may well now be interfering in the affairs of the Sikh Empire, and thus threatening far more direct British interests.

From Britain's point of view, Russian support for the Union and Russian moves towards a French alliance against Germany, all seem to be part of a pattern. The late 1850s is also the time of growing Russian influence in China, and the beginnings of modern contacts with Japan. Taking on another enemy might seem like a bad deal, but Britain is clearly going to have to deal with Russia at some time, and they don't look like a direct threat - ie there's not much likelihood of a Russian army landing in British soil and marching on London.

I certainly think that Russia will have used the weakness of Britain after 1848-9 to make these moves to her advantage, and now stands stronger than OTL and looking to be on the brink of even more gains if Britain does not make a stand against her.

Certainly from a German point of view, war with Russia as well as France is not a "good thing" but with British support it may well look better, and I could certainly see a British expeditionary force being landed in Hannover to co-operate with the royal and federal army, whilst British warships enter the Baltic, and British diplomacy attempts to stir up the Swedes and the Austrians.

As well as previously-mentioned reasons for neutrality, Austria will of course have worries over Hungary. It is under military occupation, divided into military districts for governance, and it is only a decade since a major civil war was fought there.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The Global War

Perhaps we assume that it is the Americans who give it this terminology, at least to create something different from the ubiquitous "World War". The previous war would have been known as The American War, and contained within it the Angl-American War and the Mexican-American War. Now the "War Between the States" has been subsumed from the start into a global conflict that brings in Spain and France on the side of the Union (reprising their ARW roles) and Britain on that of the CSA. The involvement of Mexico, Russia and Germany add further dimensions, and the clash of empires means that there is scarcely anywhere where the probing fingers of war do not reach.

Its certainly a war well set up for naval action and the in-conflict development of naval technology. These of course build initially on the ATL trends towards a greater use of steam propulsion, and more widespread deployment of existing state-of-the-art technology in the previous ten years - both as a result of the American War, and of Franco-German naval rivalry that has manifested itself in something of a naval race

It is important to make clear that the federal German Navy in 1858-9 is actually a significant force, in many ways a better symbol of German unity than the army, and in many respects the baby of the Frankfurt parliament which has lavished funds upon it.

Spain may initially be in the best position, not directly menaced by anyone, and able to deploy its fleet to protect its interests in the Caribbean (Cuba and Puerto Rico) where it is likely also to join detached Union and French forces in interdicting Confederate trade, clash with Mexican forces, and try to evade a fleet action with British forces sent to that theatre to reinforce their existing station vessels.

The Confederacy will initially lack substantial naval forces, as the Union will have made sure to seize control of the fleet, and the early stages of the war will all be fought on land. The wavering states in the Appalachian region and in the Delaware-Maryland area are likely to see most of the early action, as both sides seek to bolster their core support. The CSA has no vulnerable flanks since the Great Plains and the Rockies reach between it and California, whilst anything potentially coming out of the US North-West is going to be facing British forces from across the Colombia River.

CSA trade interdiction is going to be a major concern for Britain, so stopping this from happening is going to be a major aim in the immediate term, and one can imagine Cotton Convoys escorted by British warships across the N Atlantic, and French attempts to intercept and destroy these.

Further ideas and suggestions on all of this are very welcome !!!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
GW

A couple of questions & points.

a) I thought the bulk of the mass move to California was because of the gold. As such its not a case of what people are fleeing from its what they running to.

Also if there are British right wingers who feel deposed and have left the country I'm not sure they or any others, will be that welcome in an American ruled California or feel any loyalty to the US.

Furthermore a lot of the settlers from the US were from the south or elements from the Democrats who opposed the war. [OTL Freemont became governor because, like the 1860 Presidential election, the Democratic opposition was split]. Since the war is spilling over into a broader one, anti-war feeling in the north will be muted. Coupled with the high taxes that will probably be imposed to meet the demands of the war and lack of protection the US will be providing, I don't think the US position in California is impregnable and could, possibly easily, be turned by some crisis. Especially since the longer the war will go on the weaker the enemy position in the Pacific is likely to be in relative turns.

b) I take your points about the uncertain situation in Germany. A lot depends on how the emperor and his staff handle it. Could possibly see areas, most likely possibly Bavaria, being very disaffected if the Prussians are too heavy handed. On the other hand with the country in crisis, attacked from both sides stats and country nationalism will counter each other. Also they might turn toward Vienna rather than Paris if they want to find a counter to Berlin.

c) Although the alliance with the CSA is likely to cause some problems the war could be a big boost to Britain in terms of supplying a common threat to rally around. Likely to see a big technical and industrial boost as well as Britain and its allies are going to need a lot of weapons and other equipment. Germany might be making more rapid progress than OTL with the earlier unification but will still be a long way behind. Also the greater dis-unity as the component states will have more freedom and are more important and most of all the fact they are in the front line makes me think that like in Napoleonic times Britain will be the industrial centre of the alliance.

d) What is the situation in Hanover? Is it still Ernest or his son George and if the latter is he blind or not. [Lost sight in one eye due to illness and another due to injury so could see either/both butterflied].

e) Britain may have problems with cotton from and weapons to the CSA but the situation is a hell of a lot better for both than in OTL. Although the French and Spanish bases and forces will make things more difficult the allied forces will have dominance and plenty of bases from Britain, Mexico and the CSA. More serious will be the problem for the US. Its got a much shorter coastline while can be threatened from the north, south and east [i.e. such as Bermuda as a base]. Their very, very dependent on trade, both for revenue and for vital imports, heavy equipment and gunpowder especially].

Steve
 
Steve, thanks for the reply. I'll consider the points tonight and get back to you. I wrote a lot over the weekend, but this morning when I opened one of the documents it was corrupt and the whole first half has disappeared. Thus, whilst we have the French plans to invade England in 1861, and the French defeat and surrender at Castle Cary, we unfortunately don't have the French invasion !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Mr. Wolf,

I think your assessment of California isn't too bad. In both Oregon and California, especially once the Gold Rush begins, the demographics are completely in America's favor.

Especially because, with the American economy doing worse, you're going to see more internal migration to the west. You might even see an earlier Homestead Act, depending on what happens with the slavery issue.
 
I'm not convinced that the Civil War and the slave issue is going to develop as per our TL. The Union is going to feel more threatened in this TL, so cohesion will be higher. I expect that you may end up with a compromise that sticks on the basis of something like a strengthened Fugitive Slave Act, some kind of explicit guarantee not to interfere with the domestic institutions of the South, and a willingness to admit slave territories--while the South gives up its pretensions of maintaining a parity of slave and free states and is forced to accept, e.g., gradual and/pr compensated emancipation in DC.
 
I'm not convinced that the Civil War and the slave issue is going to develop as per our TL. The Union is going to feel more threatened in this TL, so cohesion will be higher. I expect that you may end up with a compromise that sticks on the basis of something like a strengthened Fugitive Slave Act, some kind of explicit guarantee not to interfere with the domestic institutions of the South, and a willingness to admit slave territories--while the South gives up its pretensions of maintaining a parity of slave and free states and is forced to accept, e.g., gradual and/pr compensated emancipation in DC.

Well, thats always a possibility - and maybe a GREATER possibility, but its not a certainty, and the timeline has moved on :)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
There is a sound of thunder afar

Tennyson (1859) :-

There is a sound of thunder afar,
Storm in the South that darkens the day!
Storm of battle and thunder of war!
Well, if it do not roll our way
Storm, Storm Riflemen form!
Ready, be ready against the storm
Riflemen, Riflemen, Riflemen form!


Tennyson wrote this in OTL about a French invasion scare during 1859, and of course the same motif would be playing out in this timeline, during the war

In fact, France may well come to decide that only by knocking Britain out of the war directly can the war be brought to a victorious conclusion. One could certainly imagine stalemate on many fronts

-1- In the East, the unreformed Russian army suffers a series of reversals against largely Prussian German forces, but these in turn get bogged down in Poland, the Russians having the capacity to keep raising more troops, and the problems of transport preventing any major advance. British naval forces raid the Baltic provinces and Finland, making some landings and tying down more Russian forces.

-2- In the West, France's main armies face off against a second German army and the British expeditionary force. One can certainly imagine that this second German army is more heterogenous than the one in the East, being composed of forces from all the federal states, more of whom in this timeline would have retained control of their armies in peacetime. Belgium and Holland-Luxembourg are neutral, which in the latter case means that neither France nor Germany can trespass on Luxembourg territory without ending up at war with Holland.

-3- In N America
-a- Trans-Appalachia, the Union over-runs Tennessee and Kentucky, ties down Missouri etc, but cannot break through into the South
-b- In the NE, and across the Great Lakes, British and Union forces make advances into each other's territory, major armies manoevring here, but also coming up against major fortifications, and fortification lines, built since the last war a decade ago
-c- In the SE, things swing one way, then the other, then back again - initially the Confederacy has the momentum carrying the war into Maryland and Delaware, but Union organisation, equipment and leadership slowly drives them back deep into Virginia, but as British support for the Confederacy coincides with Union overstretch, Confederate forces are able to push back the fnrotline to the borders of Washington DC, bringing the city under bombardment
-d- In the NW, the campaign is more organised than in the previous war a decade ago, as both Britain and the USA have constructed larger forts and garrisoned them, made binding agreements with Indians, and improved lines of communication.
-e- California is the major theatre where Mexican forces are deployed on the ground, and also sees the heaviest naval fighting directly off the coasts as British, Mexican, Union, French, Spanish and Russian forces are at various times involved. The Governor of California more or less sees to his state's own defence independent of Washington, organising volunteer regiments, outfitting them using the revenues from the goldfields, and buildin up the state armouries.

-4- The Atlantic Ocean
This is a bit of a patchwork, but would see the overlapping aims
-a- British supply of forces in Canada
-b- French and Spanish fleets keeping trade with the Union open
-c- Britain convoying cotton from the Confederacy
-d- All combatants supplying their forces in the Caribbean
and of course, their enemy's attempts to stop each of these things

Modern steam raiding cruisers would come into their own, whilst steam-driven ships of the line (screw-n-sail) would become the premier warship. Ironclads would be being constructed, and one could imagine Britain dispatching a couple to Halifax, on the first trans-Atlantic crossing by such ships.

There would also be raiding of trade to S America, reinforcements being sent to the Pacific or the Indian Ocean, and attempts to interdict those.

In addition, Spain will probably keep assaulting Gibraltar until they take it

-5- Global
-a- Africa, would see raids on each other's trading stations, but as yet there are no vast colonial holdings so no large garrisons to do much more than control the natives in the immediate areas
-b- The Mediterranean would see Corfu and the Ionian Islands lost to Britain, probably to Russian forces able to operate out of the Black Sea with the agreement of Istanbul. Malta would certainly be a major aim of the French, and would no doubt see long sieges, some relief by sea, some sea battles in the W Med caused by British needs to resupply, but eventually fall to French forces
-c- In the Caribbean, there would be French and Spanish attacks on Confederate shipping, and quite possibly raids into Confederate territory from naval forces, or from Cuba, whilst British forces would seek to protect the first and disrupt the second. Spain would also be focused on Mexico, and could well attempt to lay siege to Vera Cruz (IIRC there's an ideal offshore island to seize to do this) but be driven off by Britain.The European powers would probably assault each other's islands, but any overall outcome will depend on how the balance of naval power falls out after several years of war
-d- India, the main theatre here is the North where British and Russian forces clash on the borders, with the Sikh Empire trying to maintain its independence caught between them. In the South, the French outposts of Pondicherry etc would fall to British forces after a siege, but French intrigues would continue amongst the remaining independent princes etc and Britain would no doubt be fighting against some of these at the same time as focusing elsewhere. There could also be independent rebellions in areas conquered but resentful, including the Burmese coast (the interior was never completely conquered in this timeline)
-e- The Far East; with China and Japan beginning to be brought into the equation by Russian actions, the other European powers would be manoevring also for advantage here, both directly with the governments and with their forces taking the advantage. With the Spanish in the Philippines, and some French bases in S IndoChina, it seems unlikely that Britain is going to be able to power-project into the Sea of Okhotsk as they did in OTL Crimean War. Instead, their primary aim is going to be keeping reliable lines of communication open with British Oregon (including OTL British Columbia).


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
1861

Spring 1861, and another Winter has just passed. In North America, it has been a Winter of increased hardship for the Union, with continuous Confederate bombardment of Washington mixed in with a greater than previous British naval presence off New England, three new ironclads forming the core of the force that Britain has dedicated to the destruction of US trade. Able to hold position in bad weather and stormy seas, the ironclads have the upper hand in the twisting and turning struggle to keep the Northern ports open.

France, too, has been in the throes of a naval building programme, and King Ferdinand and his ministers have come up with a bold plan to end the war before things begin to get out of hand. Confederate resilience, and their fightback on all fronts during the last year has rocked the Alliance, and they are now looking at the third year of all-out war with few gains from where they started the first.

In addition, British army reforms have overcome the chaotic division of powers that had existed previously, even after the American War a decade previously, and this is now bearing fruit with better-trained and better-equipped British units arriving on the Western Front. In addition the taking up of some of these methods by some of the German states is also showing a marked improvement in the quality and fighting abilities of for example the Hannoverian and Hessian forces that France is facing. Whilst nobody in Paris seriously fears a German breakthrough on what has become a very static front, it is obvious that a French breakthrough has in turn been made that more unlikely.

Whilst the Meditteranean has become an Allied lake, with the fall of Malta completing the process, French trading losses in the Atlantic, and from the East, have steadily risen, with not just British, but also Confederate raiding cruisers making large inroads into her profits. Something of the same might be said for Britain, but in alliance with Germany she controls the Northern seas, access to the Baltic, and has a virtual monopoly on seaborne Northern European trade.

France has been training a new army for operations in the Caribbean, intended in the plans drawn up with their Union counterparts, to be landed in the vicinity of Mobile and Biloxi and to advance into the heart of the Confederacy from there. But ministers in Paris have begun to have serious doubts about this plan, and the loss of a whole French squadron off Northern Cuba to a combined British and Confederate force late in the year has only hardened their opposition. The US ambassador is still being told that the army is on the way, and ostensibly the large fleet being completed in French yards all around the country is to provide it with the necessary protection to break through and hold off the combined British and Confederate fleet, but in as much secrecy as is possible, these plans are being changed

British spies report that naval forces on rotation are not heading back out again from refit and resupply, but the government in London believes, not least because spies in the USA have it so, that these are going to provide additional support for the army being convoyed to the Caribbean.

Instead, the senior commanders and best-trained crews are being switched from these older warships to crew the new ironclads, and to head up the ambitious new plan, Operation Aigle.

- - -

With the Irish Rebellion having been bloodily suppressed, and British forces sitting down hard upon the Irish, a large part of what is ostensibly the British home army is actually across the Irish Sea. With the large commitment in Germany, and another equally large commitment in Canada, this leaves in Great Britain itself only units in training, and the many volunteer forces up and down the country, where those latter have not been eaten into and undermined by recruitment for the regular army.

However the situation is far different where the British navy is concerned. Whilst having substantial forces in the Baltic, off the Canadian/New England coast and in the Caribbean, as well as in transit across the Atlantic one way or the other, a substantial force remains at all times in British and nearby waters. This is based around the Channel Fleet, a veteran nucleus from Dover, Portsmouth and Plymouth whose squadrons have over two years of war kept French raids away from British homes, and even kept the Channel Islands supplied, if under constant siege from the French. The Channel Fleet feeds into the Atlantic Fleet, whose bases addtionally include Cork and Bristol, and where there is rotation between the two formations.

Additional British naval units at Chatham, in the Thames and in the Humber keep control of the North Sea, and provide backup for the Baltic operations. These forces tend to be the more elderly warships, or those just working up, and as such include a cross-section from early screw-n-sail men of war, now approaching retirement, to brand new ironclads with virgin crews just having sailed from the Tyne

The French plan has to take account of this disposition of enemy forces.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
GW

So what's the French for sealion? This is going to get very bloody. If the French get ashore they will need to win quickly because once that happens all hell breaks lose. Especially with the losses in the Med meaning that there's no base for a fleet there - although not sure that the Spanish can take Gib? Plus that the German fleet is available to help as well. I can't see the French being able to maintain supply lines to an invasion force. Hence its going to have to be a smash and grab operation.

If it works it knocks out the main allied power and puts the others [Germany, CSA & Mexico] under great pressure. If it doesn't the French will probably lose a lot of their best army and naval units and they and their allies will suffer a moral battering. Not to mention an actual invasion will concentrate minds in Britain even more.

You might see a revival of the Irish unrest but that could be very bad for them. With the country as a whole in danger there's likely to be a harsh reaction and the rebels have probably suffered enough already that the local loyalists will have enough strength to suppress them themselves.

Your really applying the old Chinese curse.;)

Steve

PS Thinking about it, even if the French take London, would that be the end of it? It would be a real pain to hold and the industrial heartland of the north would still be outside French control. Could however make for some dramatic changes in British organisation and political structure later on.
 
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