Aftermath of Central Powers victory: Migration between Mitteleuropa states, Lingua Franca, etc.

[Deleted member 97083]

Assume a Central Powers victory scenario in World War One, and the formation of a Mitteleuropa dominated by the German Empire, including Ukraine. Crimea, Latvia, and Estonia are the only areas that are directly annexed. The others are the independent states of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, and maybe a Cossack state.

In this scenario, what level of Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and Belorussian settlement would occur in Germany? What level of German settlement would occur in the Mitteleuropa states?

How much assimilation would occur, assuming that the eastern puppet states have rights, and are allies, but are still ultimately vassals economically and militarily?

What level might military service play in citizenship in the larger empire?

What interaction occurs between Eastern European Jews and Western European Jews?

What architecture is used in cities like Minsk and Kiev?

Orthodox Christianity. How does it interact with Catholicism and Lutheranism in the empire?

 

[XLII]

Assume a Central Powers victory scenario in World War One, and the formation of a Mitteleuropa dominated by the German Empire, including Ukraine. Crimea, Latvia, and Estonia are the only areas that are directly annexed. The others are the independent states of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, and maybe a Cossack state.

Yay for coherent scenario description. Me likey! For my reply, I will assume that the Germans grip the sanity ball, with occasional lapses. So no proto-Generalplan and oppression for oppessions sake. This also means that long-term ME will go from Germany+sattelites to federation with Germany as the primus inter pares (moreso than in OTL EU).

In this scenario, what level of Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and Belorussian settlement would occur in Germany? What level of German settlement would occur in the Mitteleuropa states?

There would be no settlement per se. Initially, the elite would go for a stint or permanently to Germany. Basically, if you are a gifted pole you spend a bit of your time with the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institute in Berlin. Maybe you go back, maybe you stay. Low-level immigration by both educated and uneducated laborers would be common. The latter would be repressed by various parties in various instances (e.g. protecting the german factory worker from the cheap labor). All said, I can't really see a large-scale migration beyond the normal draw. Also, the german government may decide to spruce up the eastern puppets to prevent large scale movements. After all, why move if your own country is prosperous?

How much assimilation would occur, assuming that the eastern puppet states have rights, and are allies, but are still ultimately vassals economically and militarily?

As a yardstick, take the assimilation of Bavarians into Germany. Then drop this a degree. It means everybody half-way educated speaks at least basic standard german and prussian virtues are the standard for good behavior. But then, regional identities will be kept. A bit like the situation OTL with english and US culture. If you don't want to count as a boor, be familiar with them. Any assimilation effect would be subtle.

What level might military service play in citizenship in the larger empire?

Mandatory for males. Both due to all nations having a tradition of conscription and the threat of the russian bear (imagined or not). Later this may be modified to mandatory service (i.e. choosing military or civilian) and extended to females. Essentially, it will probably become a measure of "adulthood", with those not having served (in any capacity, excepting the disabled) being looked down on.

What interaction occurs between Eastern European Jews and Western European Jews?

The western ones will look down on the eastern ones as reactionaries, and the easter ones on the western ones as traitors to their heritage. There may be some fun when the eastern ones westernise or get really orthodox as a result.

What architecture is used in cities like Minsk and Kiev?

Bauhaus. Its new, its chic, its german. Although, not having to rebuild whole cities will (hopefully) save the historic old towns. Maybe a style of "two centers" - one cultural, one commercial - will develop.

Orthodox Christianity. How does it interact with Catholicism and Lutheranism in the empire?

All participants have freedom of worship. There will be no relveant interaction, except for some prerequiste to be monarch.

Edit: I forgot, lingua franca will be german - of course^^

 

[CaliGuy]

Assume a Central Powers victory scenario in World War One, and the formation of a Mitteleuropa dominated by the German Empire, including Ukraine. Crimea, Latvia, and Estonia are the only areas that are directly annexed. The others are the independent states of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, and maybe a Cossack state.

OK.

In this scenario, what level of Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and Belorussian settlement would occur in Germany?

It depends on Germany's specific immigration policy. However, in the initial years, I would probably say "Not many" since the German right would be opposed to this for nationalistic and racist reasons while the Social Democrats might be afraid of increased worker competition.

What level of German settlement would occur in the Mitteleuropa states?

Some Germans might settle in the cities (thus resulting in these cities having a double-digit German percentage), but few Germans will settle in the countryside. After all, Germany was rapidly urbanizing and industrializing during this time.

How much assimilation would occur, assuming that the eastern puppet states have rights, and are allies, but are still ultimately vassals economically and militarily?

Probably not very much.

What level might military service play in citizenship in the larger empire?

Do you mean Mitteleuropan citizenship (equivalent to EU citizenship today)? If so, I'm not sure.

What interaction occurs between Eastern European Jews and Western European Jews?

The Eastern European Jews might resent the German Jews for their prosperity and lack of religiosity. However, over time, Eastern European Jews might likewise become more prosperous and less religious--thus resulting in less Jewish sectarian tensions.

What architecture is used in cities like Minsk and Kiev?

Either Imperial German or Bauhaus.

Orthodox Christianity. How does it interact with Catholicism and Lutheranism in the empire?

You mean among Orthodox Christian immigrants to Germany? If so, if might stir some tensions, but most such immigrants to Germany will probably keep their religion to themselves--thus making it not much of an issue.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

There would be no settlement per se. Initially, the elite would go for a stint or permanently to Germany. Basically, if you are a gifted pole you spend a bit of your time with the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institute in Berlin. Maybe you go back, maybe you stay. Low-level immigration by both educated and uneducated laborers would be common. The latter would be repressed by various parties in various instances (e.g. protecting the german factory worker from the cheap labor). All said, I can't really see a large-scale migration beyond the normal draw. Also, the german government may decide to spruce up the eastern puppets to prevent large scale movements. After all, why move if your own country is prosperous?

Well, when they start sprucing up the eastern puppets from agricultural puppets to full industrialized allies, wouldn't they need German skilled laborers to build up the industry in the east, and also German teachers to spread the language when educational system becomes wider?

As a yardstick, take the assimilation of Bavarians into Germany. Then drop this a degree. It means everybody half-way educated speaks at least basic standard german and prussian virtues are the standard for good behavior. But then, regional identities will be kept. A bit like the situation OTL with english and US culture. If you don't want to count as a boor, be familiar with them. Any assimilation effect would be subtle.

But don't Bavarians pretty much speak Standard German as first language in many cases even if there are rural dialects?

If there's minimal cross-settlement between the German Empire and the protectorate-later-ally of Belarus, then how would a majority of Belorussians not only learn German quickly but use it as their main language?

Hmm, then again, considering those areas were, prior to the Soviet Union's educational campaigns, pretty much illiterate, the fact that many people learn German as their first written language could do a lot for the usage of that language.

Mandatory for males. Both due to all nations having a tradition of conscription and the threat of the russian bear (imagined or not). Later this may be modified to mandatory service (i.e. choosing military or civilian) and extended to females. Essentially, it will probably become a measure of "adulthood", with those not having served (in any capacity, excepting the disabled) being looked down on.

That sounds likely. Would conscription be applied in the same way to Germans and other Mitteleuropa citizens, or would there be slightly different policies?

Bauhaus. Its new, its chic, its german. Although, not having to rebuild whole cities will (hopefully) save the historic old towns. Maybe a style of "two centers" - one cultural, one commercial - will develop.

Interesting, that seems likely.

All participants have freedom of worship. There will be no relveant interaction, except for some prerequiste to be monarch.

However, with the German Empire being conservative and reactionary but also placing politics above religion, wouldn't there be some value in an "Orthodox Church of Mitteleuropa" or even "Orthodox Church of Germany"? It offers more of a "nationalist" character than Catholicism based in Rome, so maybe irreligious administrators with no loyalty to one denomination or the other, could promote a national Orthodox church alongside the Lutheran churches?

Some Germans might settle in the cities (thus resulting in these cities having a double-digit German percentage), but few Germans will settle in the countryside. After all, Germany was rapidly urbanizing and industrializing during this time.

What about German smallholding farmers displaced or outcompeted by aristocratic/plutocratic large landowners, or alternatively, land reform plans involving consolidation of farming land?

When modern farming methods are fully developed in Ukraine and Belarus, there will be extra land that can be now cultivated, which would be sold to new owners. German farmers could also sell a smaller plot of land in German Empire to buy a larger plot in the Ukraine principality or Belarus principality.

Do you mean Mitteleuropan citizenship (equivalent to EU citizenship today)? If so, I'm not sure.

I was thinking that if Ukrainians entered the German Empire's army, they would learn German in the process, and that would play a part of the assimilation process. Conscription might also be associated with Mitteleuropa citizenship.

 

[XLII]

Well, when they start sprucing up the eastern puppets from agricultural puppets to full industrialized allies, wouldn't they need German skilled laborers to build up the industry in the east, and also German teachers to spread the language when educational system becomes wider?

That is part of what I refered to as low-key migration. The skilled workers and teacher will go there, because there is work. Not as part of either a resettlement programme or a large move. Meaning it will be an individual decision for each of them.

But don't Bavarians pretty much speak Standard German as first language in many cases even if there are rural dialects?
If there's minimal cross-settlement between the German Empire and the protectorate-later-ally of Belarus, then how would a majority of Belorussians not only learn German quickly but use it as their main language?]/quote]
Regarding Bavarians, there is the sentiment that we ended up in Germany because of clerical error. Regarding language, a semi-serious joke: There is Furth-im-Wald, where people communicate by barks. One bark means yes, two mean no. I will posit that there will be a hybridisation of sorts.

Hmm, then again, considering those areas were, prior to the Soviet Union's educational campaigns, pretty much illiterate, the fact that many people learn German as their first written language could do a lot for the usage of that language.

Could be like in the middle ages: Communication in the local, formal communication in german.

That sounds likely. Would conscription be applied in the same way to Germans and other Mitteleuropa citizens, or would there be slightly different policies?

I was under the impression that this would be a group of independent states, dependent on (or in the orbit of) Germany to varying degrees. Which probably means that you'll get a wide spread, eventually settling on one year service.

However, with the German Empire being conservative and reactionary but also placing politics above religion, wouldn't there be some value in an "Orthodox Church of Mitteleuropa" or even "Orthodox Church of Germany"? It offers more of a "nationalist" character than Catholicism based in Rome, so maybe irreligious administrators with no loyalty to one denomination or the other, could promote a national Orthodox church alongside the Lutheran churches?

I'd contest you on the reactionary bit (given that the SPD got more votes, the longer the voting went on) and depending on the outcome of the war even the conservative bit (i.e. the end of the aristrocratic officer corps). Given, it'll be a militaristic society as it was both forged and made great in the fires of war.
That being said, religious strife or outright discrimination would be unlikely after the Kulturkampf. The attitude is basically live and let live. Probably they'll form a Patriachate of Eastern Europe, to direct the orthodox away from Moscow, but thats about the involvement in religious affairs I see.