Aftermath of a Failed American Revolution

As to slavery, might that change after Britain bans the slave trade itself (possibly earlier ITTL?), and perhaps citing the cases of Somerset vs Stewart and Knight vs Wedderburn (or ATL equivalents) - basically, if it's ok for slavery to be (effectively) banned in Great Britain, why can't it also be banned in individual colonies?

I think the British would ban slavery before cotton becomes a major crop. That and I think the British might send a lot more convict labour.
 
I think the British would ban slavery before cotton becomes a major crop. That and I think the British might send a lot more convict labour.

As late as 1800 only about 11 percent of all slaves lived on cotton plantations while concurrent to this about as many Africans were brought into the United States (from 1780 to 1810) as during the previous 160 years prior. This is explained by the fact that alternatives to cotton existed, such as tobacco still being profitable in Virginia and Maryland, while rice was likewise in the South Carolina lowlands. The aforementioned tobacco was also growing in importance, as cultivation had spread into new regions such as South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Slaves were also used in the production of rice, sugar and grains; that last one in particular is major, as the South produced more corn than the North as late as 1860 and the value of that exceeded the value of the cotton crop:

jKFbJYSN_o.png


Even without cotton, Slavery is far too institutionalized at this point for Britain to do much about it, even if she wanted to. The slave lobby still has the support of the Crown ATL and is even more financially influential with the colonies still in the Empire.
 
As late as 1800 only about 11 percent of all slaves lived on cotton plantations while concurrent to this about as many Africans were brought into the United States (from 1780 to 1810) as during the previous 160 years prior. This is explained by the fact that alternatives to cotton existed, such as tobacco still being profitable in Virginia and Maryland, while rice was likewise in the South Carolina lowlands. The aforementioned tobacco was also growing in importance, as cultivation had spread into new regions such as South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Slaves were also used in the production of rice, sugar and grains; that last one in particular is major, as the South produced more corn than the North as late as 1860 and the value of that exceeded the value of the cotton crop:

jKFbJYSN_o.png


Even without cotton, Slavery is far too institutionalized at this point for Britain to do much about it, even if she wanted to. The slave lobby still has the support of the Crown ATL and is even more financially influential with the colonies still in the Empire.

Also turpentine described at the time as naval stores. These were the worse plantations in the deep south for salves to work on.
turpenitne+chipping+and+dipping.jpg


The history of Florida turpentine camps
The collection of turpentine, also known by its more formal name “Naval Stores,” started during the Colonial Era. During this time England needed turpentine to free itself from foreign trade, and England’s colonies provided this necessary material.

The naval stores industry developed along the entire east coast of the United States. Initially, small farmers, supplementing their farm earnings, conducted turpentining. The primary products of this industry were tar and pitch -- both needed to seal ships.

In the 1830s, the distillation process was improved and new products were developed. By the 1840s, the increased demand for naval stores in the United States made the process attractive to large southern plantation owners.

The use of slave labor expanded the naval stores industry throughout the south. Large areas in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia were put into turpentine production. Next to cotton and rice, turpentine became one of the South’s greatest exports. Slaves were organized into small camps and assigned sections of trees to work. Once trees in the section had been worked and died, the trees were cut to board. This pattern continued until the Civil War, when abolition of slavery forced changes in the turpentine industry.

No longer forced to work, many former slaves practiced subsistence farming and took jobs in the turpentine camps to supplement their incomes. Over time, this lead to the development of African-American communities within the turpentine camps. Large camps could have as many as 100 workers. The workers and their families would live at, or near, a main camp.
Over time, the extensive production of turpentine in the Carolinas and Georgia led to the destruction of the pine forests. Seeking new virgin timber, the industry turned south into Florida with its vast pine forests. This southward movement occurred in the 1900s. During this time the demand for labor led Florida to lease prisoners to the turpentine companies. Approximately 10 percent of the force in Florida was comprised of convict forced labor.

In the 1900s, the average worker in the turpentine camps relied on the company for most of his goods and services. The camp provided small shacks or shanties for the workers and their families. In addition to housing, the worker was paid monthly. In the early 1900s, the average wage was based on the amount of trees worked. Workers could earn $15-25 a month; however, in many camps the pay was often in the form of specie, scrip, or tokens usable in the company stores.

By 1910, there were five working turpentine camps in Manatee County (Sarasota County 1921). Near Fruitville was the Hall and Cheney Camp. The R.T. Hall & Company Prison Camp was near Sandy and the Williams Camp was near Venice. The Hall and Harrison Camp was west of Cow Pen Slough, and there was an unnamed camp in the present Carlton Preserve area. Of these five camps, three are known to have used convict labor in addition to their paid workforce to harvest gum.

In the 1920s, many of the turpentine camps were closing. The trees had been in production for ten years and the camps were being converted into timber mills. In 1923, the state prohibited the practice of leasing convict labor to private companies. This had a direct impact on at least three of the camps in Sarasota County and raised the cost of production.


In the 1930s, two new camps were created at Sidell and Bee Ridge. Both camps provided housing and a commissary for the workers and their families. By the 1940s, production was in decline and by 1951 both camps were closed.

Over time, the extensive production of turpentine in the Carolinas and Georgia led to the destruction of the pine forests. Seeking new virgin timber, the industry turned south into Florida with its vast pine forests. This southward movement occurred in the 1900s. During this time the demand for labor led Florida to lease prisoners to the turpentine companies. Approximately 10 percent of the force in Florida was comprised of convict forced labor.

In the 1900s, the average worker in the turpentine camps relied on the company for most of his goods and services. The camp provided small shacks or shanties for the workers and their families. In addition to housing, the worker was paid monthly. In the early 1900s, the average wage was based on the amount of trees worked. Workers could earn $15-25 a month; however, in many camps the pay was often in the form of specie, scrip, or tokens usable in the company stores.

By 1910, there were five working turpentine camps in Manatee County (Sarasota County 1921). Near Fruitville was the Hall and Cheney Camp. The R.T. Hall & Company Prison Camp was near Sandy and the Williams Camp was near Venice. The Hall and Harrison Camp was west of Cow Pen Slough, and there was an unnamed camp in the present Carlton Preserve area. Of these five camps, three are known to have used convict labor in addition to their paid workforce to harvest gum.

In the 1920s, many of the turpentine camps were closing. The trees had been in production for ten years and the camps were being converted into timber mills. In 1923, the state prohibited the practice of leasing convict labor to private companies. This had a direct impact on at least three of the camps in Sarasota County and raised the cost of production.


In the 1930s, two new camps were created at Sidell and Bee Ridge. Both camps provided housing and a commissary for the workers and their families. By the 1940s, production was in decline and by 1951 both camps were closed.

Information for this article was obtained from C.B. Butler’s “Treasures of the Longleaf Pines: Naval Stores and B.W. Burger’s “1991 Archaeological Investigations of the Turpentine Camp No.2 site. https://www.heraldtribune.com/article/LK/20040315/News/605205566/SH/

Even when the British banned slavery they continued to use forced labour like blackbirding.
Blackbirding involves the coercion of people through deception and/or kidnapping to work as unpaid or poorly paid labourers in countries distant to their native land. The term has been most commonly applied to the large-scale taking of people indigenous to the numerous islands in the Pacific Ocean during the 19th and 20th centuries. These blackbirded people were called Kanakas or South Sea Islanders. The owners, captains and crew of the ships involved in the acquisition of these labourers were termed blackbirders. The demand for this kind of cheap labour principally came from European colonists in New South Wales, Peru, Queensland, Samoa, New Caledonia, Fiji, Tahiti, Hawaii, Mexico and Guatemala. Labouring on sugarcane, cotton and coffee plantations in these lands was the main usage of blackbirded labour but they were also exploited in other industries.

Blackbirding ships began operations in the Pacific from the 1840s and continued into the 1930s. In the 1860s, Peruvian blackbirders sought workers at their haciendas and to mine the guano deposits on the Chincha Islands.[2] From the late 1860s, the blackbirding trade focused on supplying labourers to plantations, particularly those producing sugar-cane in Queensland and Fiji.[3][4]

Examples of blackbirding outside the South Pacific include the early days of the pearling industry in Western Australia at Nickol Bay and Broome, where Aboriginal Australians were blackbirded from the surrounding areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbirding
 
Last edited:
if the revolution was crushed after the Declaration of Independence had been proclaimed, most of the founding fathers would be hanged for acts of high treason.

The colonies would disown the Continental Congress, but assuming what would happend to scotland ( the Jacobite rebellion) and Ireland in OTL

the British would impose martial law and destroy anything that relates to the revolution

now it depends if the brits cause to much destruction and killing, it would alienate many Americans even the loyalist, who would see the brits as

in OTL only 1/3 of americans where for revolt if the British alienate the Americans this number would sky rocket

But, I do believe there would be a second revolt, but not until the Napoleonic wars

simply Britian cant hold to america against their will, the 13 colonies where huge in european standars , and they could wait until Britain goes to a continental war (ie the napolonic wars ) america would revolt
 
if the revolution was crushed after the Declaration of Independence had been proclaimed, most of the founding fathers would be hanged for acts of high treason.

The colonies would disown the Continental Congress, but assuming what would happend to scotland ( the Jacobite rebellion) and Ireland in OTL

the British would impose martial law and destroy anything that relates to the revolution

now it depends if the brits cause to much destruction and killing, it would alienate many Americans even the loyalist, who would see the brits as

in OTL only 1/3 of americans where for revolt if the British alienate the Americans this number would sky rocket

But, I do believe there would be a second revolt, but not until the Napoleonic wars

simply Britian cant hold to america against their will, the 13 colonies where huge in european standars , and they could wait until Britain goes to a continental war (ie the napolonic wars ) america would revolt
Well, there likely wouldn't be a Napoleonic Wars. Sure there would be wars against revolutionary France, but the odds of Napoleon coming to power in this world are slim. I wonder what colonies would join in this 2nd revolt and (assuming it suceeds) what kind of government they would form. I could see ole' Andy Jackson setting himself up as a dictator post-war. He'd be like an "evil" George Washington in a way. Winning the war only to establish himself as dictator. Washington easily could've done that, but it wasn't in his character.
 
Well, there likely wouldn't be a Napoleonic Wars. Sure there would be wars against revolutionary France, but the odds of Napoleon coming to power in this world are slim. I wonder what colonies would join in this 2nd revolt and (assuming it suceeds) what kind of government they would form. I could see ole' Andy Jackson setting himself up as a dictator post-war. He'd be like an "evil" George Washington in a way. Winning the war only to establish himself as dictator. Washington easily could've done that, but it wasn't in his character.

true i forgot napeleon does not have the perfect opportunity in this timeline

it is very possible do to the fact that the experiment with democracy failed ( ie the first revolution) and the founding fathers are killed
that america could become like a latin american state or would import a monarch to make a monarchy
 
true i forgot napeleon does not have the perfect opportunity in this timeline

it is very possible do to the fact that the experiment with democracy failed ( ie the first revolution) and the founding fathers are killed
that america could become like a latin american state or would import a monarch to make a monarchy
This idea fascinates me. I love the idea of the US becoming like an OTL Latin American nation. It would be very interesting to see this TL's American Founding Fathers with Jackson as the "Father of the Nation".
 
This idea fascinates me. I love the idea of the US becoming like an OTL Latin American nation. It would be very interesting to see this TL's American Founding Fathers with Jackson as the "Father of the Nation".

if america plays it cards rigth it could become a chile like country or heck it could become a good semi indsutralized regional power , but most likely do to the problems that would come america could become like argentina a fabolus wealthy agro exporting country that never indsutrlized do to having many crops and suffers the same fate as argentina when the 20th century comes
 
if america plays it cards rigth it could become a chile like country or heck it could become a good semi indsutralized regional power , but most likely do to the problems that would come america could become like argentina a fabolus wealthy agro exporting country that never indsutrlized do to having many crops and suffers the same fate as argentina when the 20th century comes
I would LOVE to see a TL about these ideas. Most TLs I've seen about a failed revolution usually just end up with the colonies basically becoming Canada.
 
I would LOVE to see a TL about these ideas. Most TLs I've seen about a failed revolution usually just end up with the colonies basically becoming Canada.

becoming like canda is likely if the revolution is crushed early on , if its crushed later yeah no , the americans would be resentful of the brits taking away their freedoms and the rigth to have a "continental parliament" taking away their autonomy

you know what may be i will write that what if USA became a third world country or the revolution fails i would have to do more research
 
If the British wanted to be nasty they could free the slaves who would be very grateful and loyal to the Crown. They could recruit them in to an army or militia too ensure the settlers never rebel again and threatened the peace of the crown colonies. Slaves staying free would be dependant on the colonies remaining under British control.
Former rebels could replace the labour done by slaves as punishment.

Even the rumour of such an idea would put the fear of God in to the settlers.
It could be the rebellion makes that British question the idea of democracy as a stable form of government in the Americas or else where.

They could apply the Penal laws or some thing like them to the Americas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws

The message is rebel and you lose you slaves,land and liberties and are reduced to the rank of indentured servants and later tenant farmers like the Irish.

Rebel again and it will be even worse.

I must admit it is a bit far fetched and almost ASB.
 
Last edited:
Top