After the BoF and BoB: options for the Luftwaffe

That sounds like a way in which LW could increase flying hours per pilot substantially.

Primary obstacle was lack of fuel. Germanys petrol supplies were ok for 1939 - 41 levels of warfare, but from 1942 there was a rapid & steady expansion of war operations against a very slowly growing petroleum supply. Boosting training hours reduces air combat operations by that number of hours.

A second problem was the number of qualified instructors. The system in general through 1942 was suitable for peacetime, but not for wartime.

I've read that the Luftwaffe frequently had to borrow aircraft and instructors from its equivalent of the RAF's operational training units to bring the front-line up to strength for major operations such as the invasions of Poland and France.

Is that true? If it was:
  • In the short term that part of the Luftwaffe's training programme was stopped for the duration of the campaign.
  • Some of the instructors did not return to the training schools when the campaign was over because they had become casualties. This meant the training organisation could produce fewer new aircrew to replace losses and for expansion in the longer term.

Which is correct, & just part of the problem. In 1939 the RAF revamped its pilot training from a extended peacetime syllabus to a rapid wartime program. They dropped everything that was 'nice to have' and focused on more of the basics of what the future pilot needed. In 120 days or less a competent fighter pilot was turned out. He lacked knowledge that would make him a well rounded Airman & areonautical engineer, but he could take a Hurricane or Spitfire into battle with some hope of survival. The Germans were slow to revamp their program, which caught up with them in late 1941. Rotating to few veteran pilots to the schools was another problem, but to take advantage of that technique the fuel problem needed to be solved.
 
They could have used the Jumo 205 in a next series from the Jungmeister, a mid wing monoplane with steel tube fuselage and wooden wing with fabric covering for advanced pilot training, something like the Hurricane came from the Fury.
 
Oh, please cancel the Ju87 in 1940, yesyes.
The Admiralty will send you a Xmas card. :D
Every thing I've read suggest STUKA dive bomber was a critical aspect to blitzkrieg through Barbarossa. Is unsuccessful role in BoB, has much to do with the role it was asked to fill. It was designed to support panzer columns rampaging behind enemy lines. If KM ever developed escort carriers probably the only plane they could count on from the start would be the STUKA.
 
Primary obstacle was lack of fuel. Germanys petrol supplies were ok for 1939 - 41 levels of warfare, but from 1942 there was a rapid & steady expansion of war operations against a very slowly growing petroleum supply. Boosting training hours reduces air combat operations by that number of hours.

A second problem was the number of qualified instructors. The system in general through 1942 was suitable for peacetime, but not for wartime.

Available Diesel fuel can increased by forcing the KM to limit all coastal warships production/plans to coal propulsion from 1936 on . During the war it looks like 1/4 million to 1/3 million tons of diesel fuel per year was consumed by these coastal forces. Freeing this up can release diesel fuel .
 
I fully agree. However, how much room for manoeuvre did the Luftwaffe really have in the matter?

None. Hitler convinced everyone that this was to be a short war. Then when he was proved wrong it was far too late to do much about it, not that there was much that could be done. Germany simply couldn't afford a long fight, period.
 
I've read that the Luftwaffe frequently had to borrow aircraft and instructors from its equivalent of the RAF's operational training units to bring the front-line up to strength for major operations such as the invasions of Poland and France.
To be fair Bomber Command did the same thing for the thousand bomber raids.
 
I think the major problem with the Luftwaffe was that it tried to be a balanced air-force like the RAF and USAAF, when Germany couldn't afford such a force. It is often criticised for being a 'tactical air-force' but I'd suggest that the main problem was that it wasn't tactical enough. A good model for a reorganisation would have been the RAF division into ADGB and 2TAF. On the Eastern Front there'd be a few hundred medium bombers plus hordes of fighters and fighter-bombers. There'd also be a small number of Stukas which would be used for targets which required great precision and heavy bombs. When not being used in this role they could be used as night-harassment raiders. This kind of organisation would reduce both petrol usage and losses, since there'd be no need to use slow, vulnerable twin-engined bombers for CAS, as happened in OTL. Basically, as the Bf109F was introduced the 109E's would be passed to ground-attack units. The 109 wasn't ideal for the role, but it would still be more survivable against both enemy fighters and flak, and would be supplanted and replaced by FW190 variants as they became available.

In Germany there would obviously be day and night fighters to oppose the SBO, and in the West there'd be some specialised units - eg, for anti-shipping operations using bombs, torpedoes and mines.

In terms of aircraft types they should have stopped building the He111, the Do17/217 and the Bf110, concentrating mostly on the Bf109, FW190 and Ju88 (as bomber and night-fighter), plus small numbers of other aircraft. It's often suggested that the Luftwaffe needed a long-range patrol bomber, and the He277 is the favoured design to fulfill this role, but I disagree: any successes achieved by such aircraft were only going to be in the short term, as once the merchantmen and escorts got enough AA guns, low-level attacks would become prohibitively expensive in terms of losses. If the intention was just to locate convoys and home-in U-boats then the FW200 would have been perfectly adequate if the Luftwaffe hadn't insisted on loading it down with guns and bombs. Logic might have suggested that, if enemy fighters were present then the FW200 was a sitting-duck and guns would do it little good, while if there were no fighters then the guns were unnecessary.

An example of the Luftwaffe trying to be a balanced air-force would be Steinbock: the Germans managed to scrape together 300 bombers, but instead of using them to try to hamper the upcoming invasion by anti-shipping operations, they were thrown against London in a futile attempt to imitate Bomber Command, and were massacred by the British defences.
 
People come out with good suggestions, mostly re. training.
I'll toss some cancellations at 1st. Like the Jumo 222, all aero diesels from Jumo, any radial after the 801 from BMW, coupled engines by Daimler Benz. Leaves Jumo working on 211, and shortly after that the 213 and jet engines. BMW need to refine the 801, plus they can also go with jet engines. DB goes with 601/605/603. Both Jumo and DB need to develop 2-stage superchaged engines - Jumo was making experimental 2- and even 3-stage S/Ced engines in the 1930s. More emphasis to the Heinkel jet engines.
The Me 210 also need to be cancelled, Ju-288 gets the BMW 801 initially, later either DB 603 or Jumo 213; Ju 88 and Bf 110 will fill the slots for night fighters (that need radars, as noted before). Fw 190 needs more examples produced ASAP, mening it will get the DB 601/605/Jumo 211 engines. Fast twin engined aircraft is needed for next-gen NF and Schnellbomber jobs, I'm looking something along the size of Ta-154, but produced in metal, featuring a decent bomb bay that will hold cannons & ammo in NF variant.
More later.
 
People come out with good suggestions, mostly re. training.
I'll toss some cancellations at 1st. Like the Jumo 222, all aero diesels from Jumo, any radial after the 801 from BMW, coupled engines by Daimler Benz. Leaves Jumo working on 211, and shortly after that the 213 and jet engines. BMW need to refine the 801, plus they can also go with jet engines. DB goes with 601/605/603. Both Jumo and DB need to develop 2-stage superchaged engines - Jumo was making experimental 2- and even 3-stage S/Ced engines in the 1930s. More emphasis to the Heinkel jet engines.
The Me 210 also need to be cancelled, Ju-288 gets the BMW 801 initially, later either DB 603 or Jumo 213; Ju 88 and Bf 110 will fill the slots for night fighters (that need radars, as noted before). Fw 190 needs more examples produced ASAP, mening it will get the DB 601/605/Jumo 211 engines. Fast twin engined aircraft is needed for next-gen NF and Schnellbomber jobs, I'm looking something along the size of Ta-154, but produced in metal, featuring a decent bomb bay that will hold cannons & ammo in NF variant.
More later.

The Ju288 with a BMW 801 isn't going to work. The airframe needed a minimum of 4000hp, on larger, later versions raised to 4500. 3600 isn't going to cut it. The Fw191 (a larger airframe) was designed for two Jumo 222s, but the final revision would have had no fewer than 4 BMW 801s.
 
I can remember being told of the time a friend of my late Father, who was normally a gunner on Sunderlands, was requisitioned to be a tail-gunner on a Stirling on that raid - he commented that he had never been so scared in all his life!
 
It's often suggested that the Luftwaffe needed a long-range patrol bomber, and the He277 is the favoured design to fulfill this role, but I disagree: any successes achieved by such aircraft were only going to be in the short term, as once the merchantmen and escorts got enough AA guns, low-level attacks would become prohibitively expensive in terms of losses. If the intention was just to locate convoys and home-in U-boats then the FW200 would have been perfectly adequate if the Luftwaffe hadn't insisted on loading it down with guns and bombs. Logic might have suggested that, if enemy fighters were present then the FW200 was a sitting-duck and guns would do it little good, while if there were no fighters then the guns were unnecessary.
.

Agree with the first part but not the second. The U-Boat war needed a maritime patrol aircraft and the FW-200 attacks worked well through in direct attacks through 1941. From late 1941 the role was more surveillance - with B-Dienst targeting convoys through code cracking from late 41-late 1943 . During this time they detected 1/2 of all the north Atlantic convoys, but were only able to attack 1/6 of the convoys -mostly by directing numerous wolf packs- through copious radio communications....which were intercepted & ultimately lead to their defeat.

The numbers of maritime bombers were woefully inadequate , with production runs of only 50-90 in the early years. Luftwaffe further restricted KM use to 1/2 of these FW-200 patrol planes. This meant maybe 1/2 dozen sortie a day- but on average only one would be FW-200, while the rest would be seaplanes like the BV-138 or DO-18/24. By late war most missions were HE-177 except ASM bombers that were Do-217 in 1943 and HE-177 in 1944. Trouble was these bombers were all short range , barely able to reach Iceland.... so mid Atlantic was out of reach.

Something more was needed with transatlantic range, that way B-Dienst detected convoys could be located and shadowed by patrol bombers -broadcasting the convoy location. Wolf packs need only minimum coms -reducing risk of HF/DF interception and attack. That could double the number of convoys attacked and MV sunk.
 

Deleted member 1487

Agree with the first part but not the second. The U-Boat war needed a maritime patrol aircraft and the FW-200 attacks worked well through in direct attacks through 1941. From late 1941 the role was more surveillance - with B-Dienst targeting convoys through code cracking from late 41-late 1943 . During this time they detected 1/2 of all the north Atlantic convoys, but were only able to attack 1/6 of the convoys -mostly by directing numerous wolf packs- through copious radio communications....which were intercepted & ultimately lead to their defeat.

The numbers of maritime bombers were woefully inadequate , with production runs of only 50-90 in the early years. Luftwaffe further restricted KM use to 1/2 of these FW-200 patrol planes. This meant maybe 1/2 dozen sortie a day- but on average only one would be FW-200, while the rest would be seaplanes like the BV-138 or DO-18/24. By late war most missions were HE-177 except ASM bombers that were Do-217 in 1943 and HE-177 in 1944. Trouble was these bombers were all short range , barely able to reach Iceland.... so mid Atlantic was out of reach.

Something more was needed with transatlantic range, that way B-Dienst detected convoys could be located and shadowed by patrol bombers -broadcasting the convoy location. Wolf packs need only minimum coms -reducing risk of HF/DF interception and attack. That could double the number of convoys attacked and MV sunk.
Do-26 had the range to spot and stay away from convoys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_26
Range: 9,000 km (5,592 mi)

Powerplant: 4 × Junkers Jumo 205D Diesel, 656 kW (880 hp) each

For an Atlantik Bomber the Jumo 223 would have been a great option:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_223
The Junkers Jumo 223 was an experimental 24-cylinder aircraft engine based on the Junkers Jumo 205. Like the Jumo 205, it was an opposed piston two-stroke diesel engine. It had four banks of six cylinders in a rhomboid configuration, with four crankshafts one at each vertex of the rhombus, and 48 pistons. It was designed for a power of 2,500 horsepower at 4,400 rpm, and weighed around 2,370 kg.[1]

In 1942 the 223 was abandoned in favour of an even larger engine, the Jumo 224 with an intended output power of 4,500 horsepower.[1]

The Jumo 223 series was influential to the successful three-crankshaft Napier Deltic engine.
Have the Germans not abandon it in 1942 and you could get an engine more fuel efficient than the Deltic and more powerful for bomber type flight (i.e. avoiding rapid speed changes like in fighters)
 
The Ju288 with a BMW 801 isn't going to work. The airframe needed a minimum of 4000hp, on larger, later versions raised to 4500. 3600 isn't going to cut it. The Fw191 (a larger airframe) was designed for two Jumo 222s, but the final revision would have had no fewer than 4 BMW 801s.

I'm trying to get a bomber that provides better return of investment than the He 111 or Ju 88, not to make the super-bomber. Basically - something designed around the bomb bay and fuel tanks, that will still be reasonably fast when laden with heavy bombs. Thus I'll add the 'no increase in size' rule for the BMW-powered Ju-288.
__________________________________________

A bit on guns/cannons.
Obviously the MG 15 and 17 are of dubious usability once people started adding armor to their A/C. Thus - Bf 109F will feature three MG FF/M cannons, each with 90 rd drum. Fw 190 - four cannons (three for V12 powered variants), whether MG 151 or MG FF/M; no MGs for either fighter. A belt-fed MG FF/M will come in handy.
Design the 15mm cannon, but not so big, heavy and powerful as the MG 151 - say, for 750 m/s instead of 960 m/s.
For bigger punch, initially go with up-scaled MG FF/M and MG 151/20, for a 200 g Mine shell (~ 25mm caliber). The future MK 103 (but less clumsy, like the MK 103M) in two versions - 1st tank buster at, indeed, 30mm, 2nd as anti-air cannon for a 500-600 mm Mine shell (~35 mm barrell).
 
AFAIK most of the reference books say 263 or 276 Fw200s were built, but they are unclear if they mean just the Fw200C or total production including the 3 prototypes, Fw200A airliners and Fw200Bs.

Both Smith & Kay and Fenec & Dancey list Fw200C production from 1940 to 1944 as follows:
1940 - 26
1941 - 58
1942 - 84
1943 - 76
1944 - 8​

Total 252 Fw200C 1940-44

Would doubling or even quadrupling the number of Fw200C built in 1940 and 1941 without reducing production of something else be that hard? My spreadsheet says that Germany built 10,247 aircraft in 1940 and 12,401 in 1941. An extra 78 airframes and 312 engines in 1940 followed by an extra 174 airframes and 696 engines in 1941 doesn't seem that hard to me.
 
A supplementary question to Post 56.

When being used in the transport role how good was the Fw200C in comparison to the Ju52?

IIRC 2 staffeln of Fw200Cs were transferred from the Atlantic to Stalingrad in 1942. If 4 times as many were built ITTL I think that there would be a good chance that all the extra aircraft would be sent there because every aircraft that could be used as a transport was needed.

We discussed the possibility of building more Ju86s to supplement the Ju52s in the advanced training schools earlier on in the thread. IIRC some Ju86 squadrons took part in the Stalingrad airlift too. So I think that there would be a good chance that any extra Ju86 aircraft built ITTL would be sent to Stalingrad as well.
 
Another IIRC, which is that the Luftwaffe suffered from lower aircraft serviceability rates than the RAF and USAAF. Part of the reason for that was a shortage of spare parts due to the aircraft industry being told to concentrate on building new aircraft.

If that is true would it be better to produce more spare parts rather than build more aircraft?
 

Deleted member 1487

If that is true would it be better to produce more spare parts rather than build more aircraft?
Of course, same with not building as many tanks and having a large number unserviceable.
 
A better plan might be to get the KM to buy LW planes and adapt them to KM usage. LW would love that and thus might be more conducive to making trades with each other to better there war efforts. In truth a Military C-in-C would have demanded nothing less than such cooperation. For example with foresight a KM that is forced to plan for war in 1940 as opposed to 1945/47 time period would be forced to prioritize plane production. Building a long range maritime "pirate bomber" would be # 1, with a long range sea plane patrol plane a close second. As with any surface fleet, priority would have to go to supporting the U-Boat war. That could limit production to mostly the FW-200 condor & BV-138. Going on the annual production the resources could be reduced to ....


1939
96 * Ar 196 [3.7t & BMW ]
61* BV 138 [14.7t & 3x JU-205]
48 * Do 18 [10t & 2x JU-205]
102* He 115 [10t & 2 BMW123]
2752t + 300 BMW & 279 Ju 205 = ALTERANATE FLEET 75 CONDOR & 65 BV 138

1940
104* Ar 196 [3.7t & BMW ]
82* BV 138 [14.7t & 3x JU-205]
49 * Do 18 [10t & 2x JU-205]
1 * Do 24 [18t & 3 x BMW-323]
76* He 115 [10t & 2 BMW123]
2890t + 259 BMW & 344 Ju 205 = ALTERANATE FLEET 64 CONDOR & 92 BV 138

1941
94 * Ar 196 [3.7t & BMW ]
85* BV 138 [14.7t & 3x JU-205]
5 * Do 222[47t & 6x JU-207d]
7 * Do 24 [18t & 3 x BMW-323]
1958 t + 115 BMW & 285 Ju 205 = ALTERANATE FLEET 30 CONDOR & 84 BV-138

1942
107 * Ar 196 [3.7t & BMW ]
70* BV 138 [14.7t & 3x JU-205]
2 * Do 222 [47t & 6x JU-207d]
46 * Do 24 [18t & 3 x BMW-323]
2347 t + 245 BMW & 222 JU-205 = ALTERANATE FLEET 61 CONDOR & 60 BV 138

1943
104 * Ar 196 [3.7t & BMW ]
4 * Do 222 [47t & 6x JU-207d]
81 * Do 24 [18t & 3 x BMW-323]
141* He 115 [10t & 2 BMW123]
3448 t + 629 BMW & 24 JU-205 = ALTERANATE FLEET 135 CONDOR[/quote]
 
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