After the BoF and BoB: options for the Luftwaffe

Deleted member 1487

In OTL they used the Ju-52 as a basic trainer, because nothing else was available
Advanced multi-engine trainer. They had other options, but because it was an old, already built aircraft on had with easy flying characteristics they used it rather than build other trainers.
 
Advanced multi-engine trainer. They had other options, but because it was an old, already built aircraft on had with easy flying characteristics they used it rather than build other trainers.

IIRC there was a 1940 proposal to replace the Ju52 trainers with Ju86s after the bomber version was cancelled without much forewarning. AIUI Junkers had a large number of components lying in stock. However, no one in a position of power thought that it would be necessary, since the Ju52s wouldn't be needed for anything other than training.
 

Deleted member 1487

IIRC there was a 1940 proposal to replace the Ju52 trainers with Ju86s after the bomber version was cancelled without much forewarning. AIUI Junkers had a large number of components lying in stock. However, no one in a position of power thought that it would be necessary, since the Ju52s wouldn't be needed for anything other than training.
Yes, but the Ju86 was kind of a death trap without different engines. And the Luftwaffe was already using the Ju52 as a transport in 1940???
 
in the timeframe mentioned it seems converting a large percent of their gliders to powered flight would have been a good move using captured French engines. sacrifice the HS-129, that alone would allow for 800+ Gotha GO-244 to be powered (and they might have served as trainer aircraft also?)

could not have found cheaper alternative to equipping already constructed gliders with captured French engines and in a useful function.
 
Yes, but the Ju86 was kind of a death trap without different engines. And the Luftwaffe was already using the Ju52 as a transport in 1940???

To be honest, that's the first time I've heard of any problems with the Ju86's flight characteristics, but I'm open to being persuaded.

The German Wiki has a plausible analysis of the diesels ("Der Verbrauch lag beim Fliegen im Verband höher als erwartet, die Brandsicherheit war nicht größer als bei Flugzeugen mit Benzinmotoren, und die erreichte Geschwindigkeit war für den geplanten Verwendungszweck zu gering. Fuel consumption when flying in formation was higher than expected, fire safety was no greater than that of aircraft with petrol motors and the achieved speed was too low for the intended use).

Junkers had already (around 1937?) developed a petrol engined version for export, so it would have been possible to produce a trainer version without armament using lower powered petrol engines. By lower powered here I mean less than the 1100 hp of the DB601 or the 1300 hp of the Jumo 211. The Jumo 205 diesels originally fitted to the Ju 86 gave only 600 hp.

As for your second point, what I wrote didn't correspond with what I meant (I have the brain of a cheese sandwich sometimes). What I should have written was "... since the Ju52s wouldn't be needed for anything other than training in any significant numbers." In 1940 France had been defeated, the invasion of Crete, supplying the Demyansk Pocket, the Stalingrad airlift were not on anyone's radar, and the Ju 252 had just been ordered. Given the sort of victory infected wishful thinking that the Luftwaffe suffered from at the time everything seemed in hand.

Of course, none of this answers the question as to who exactly was going to fly the Ju52s of the nascent transport wing. OTL they were flown to Crete and Stalingrad by highly qualified instructor pilots. Not the wisest use of rescources.
 
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Building a cheap dedicated trainer using a lot on non-strategic materials with a fuel efficient engine would help flight training.
Just don't let Willy Messerschmitt to design it.

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Please explain - in more detail - why WM would be the wrong designer?
Budd Davisson (www.airbum) describes Messerschmitt 108 handling as modern and easy to fly.
Granted, Me 108 is bigger than needed for a basic trainer.

Bucker 181 Bestmann is better suited as an primary trainer.

Arado 96 was a decent advanced trainer and its 500 hp Argus 411 engine burned considerably less fuel than combat types.

FW 58 made a decent multi-engined trainer. Notice that all my suggestions use comparatively small engines - to reduce fuel burn.
 
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As everyone expected a short war all new aircraft development was ordered suspended in 1940-41, a HUGE mistake to say the least. This can't happen.
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As I keep continuously point out...."everyone" was in fact almost entirely Hitler. It was his stupidity in bodied in the "FOUR YEAR PLAN", to abandon the previous expansion strategy doctrine - penned by Defense minister Groner in 1930. Schacht/ Groner's doctrine encouraged steady expansion of Germany through a 15 year program in order to build a total war economy based on a integrated eastern European economic zone spearheaded by a mechanized HEER/Wehrmacht [mobilized to size of 1914 HEER] with enough stockpiled resources and munitions [& fuel] for two years of continuous mechanized warfare B4 a total war economy could be established . After this they would have a "reasonable chance of winning the wider European war".

Hitler was unwilling to wait until 1945 for such a war machine to be completed and more importantly he firmly believed such a program was not even needed in the first place. Hitler believed in his lightning war and these countries would cave against his will plus shifting alliances, and sequential bully them into the NAZI sphere by 1940.
 
By the end of 1943 German fighter pilots were being sent into combat with 170 or fewer hours. Conversely US fighter pilots arrived at their squadrons with 300+ hrs & RAF with 340 hours by early 1944. Wing & Group commanders were mandating additional training hours by the unit veterans

That sounds like a way in which LW could increase flying hours per pilot substantially.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
With a 1940/41 POD, their best bet is to cut Ju-87 production immediately. Anything outdated needs to go RIGHT FUCKING NOW. Convert the Ju-87 lines over to Fw 190's or 109's, use the excess engine capacity on the Jumo lines to fill demand for the Ju-88 and He-111. No more rifle-caliber defensive mounts. Everything needs to go to the Mg 131. No bomber gets a DB601 or a BMW 801.

Develop heavier-rated wing shackles for the Bf-110, or mount ETC 503's. It's your attack-aircraft now.

The He 280 needs to go into production as soon as a usable engine is available. No bomber version.

Set up another line or two for the DB 605 if possible, and stockpile fule like mad bastards. Fuel is the absolute most important resource now, and everywhere needs to be squeezed until its dry.

If we want a real good chance at buffing up the Luftwaffe, we need a POD around 1935. Generally more engine and aircraft assembly plants. Aim for doubled output capacity. More targets means fewer bombs per target, less damage, and more excess capacity to absorb disruptions of any kind.
 
IIRC there was a 1940 proposal to replace the Ju52 trainers with Ju86s after the bomber version was cancelled without much forewarning. AIUI Junkers had a large number of components lying in stock. However, no one in a position of power thought that it would be necessary, since the Ju52s wouldn't be needed for anything other than training.
I read in one book about the Luftwaffe that there were enough components lying about in stock to build 1,000 Ju86s. Is that true?

Apart from finding a new engine the author said that the cockpit would have to be fitted with different instrument panels for the trainees.
 
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Please explain - in more detail - why WM would be the wrong designer?
Budd Davisson (www.airbum) describes Messerschmitt 108 handling as modern and easy to fly.
Granted, Me 108 is bigger than needed for a basic trainer.

Bucked 181 Bestmann is better suited as an primary trainer.

Arado 96 was a decent advanced trainer and its 500 hp Argus 411 engine burned considerably less fuel than combat types.

FW 58 made a decent multi-engined trainer. Notice that all my suggestions use comparatively small engines - to reduce fuel burn.
Willy would be to busy working on other designs,later model Me-109s and the Me-262 any delays in those aircraft would have bad consequences.
 
Of course, none of this answers the question as to who exactly was going to fly the Ju52s of the nascent transport wing. OTL they were flown to Crete and Stalingrad by highly qualified instructor pilots. Not the wisest use of resources.
I've read that the Luftwaffe frequently had to borrow aircraft and instructors from its equivalent of the RAF's operational training units to bring the front-line up to strength for major operations such as the invasions of Poland and France.

Is that true? If it was:
  • In the short term that part of the Luftwaffe's training programme was stopped for the duration of the campaign.
  • Some of the instructors did not return to the training schools when the campaign was over because they had become casualties. This meant the training organisation could produce fewer new aircrew to replace losses and for expansion in the longer term.
 
I read in one book about the Luftwaffe that there were enough components lying about in stock to build 1,000 Ju86s. Is that true?
If it is true then building 1,000 extra Ju86s as advanced trainers might help the Germans a lot as 2,804 Ju52s were built 1939-44 according to the two sources I looked at:
1939 - 145 - though that might be September to December, not the whole year
1940 - 388
1941 - 502
1942 - 503
1943 - 887
1944 - 379
 
This would be much easier to read if the website would import Excel spreadsheets and I'm not sure what it proves. However, it shows the total German aircraft production from 1934 to 1945, the number of trainers produced and finally trainers as a percentage of total aircraft production.

1934 - 1,968 - 1,278 - 65%
1935 - 3,183 - 1,686 - 53%
1936 - 5,112 - 3,069 - 60%
1937 - 5,606 - 2,721 - 49%
1938 - 5,235 - 1,624 - 31%
1939 - 7,350 - 1,051 - 14%
1940 - 10,247 - 1,870 - 18%
1941 - 12,401 - 1,121 - 9%
1942 - 15,551 - 1,098 - 7%
1943 - 25,527 - 2,274 - 9%
1944 - 40,593 - 3,693 - 9%
1945 - 7,540 - 318 - 4%
Total - 140,313 - 21,803 - 16%
 
  • Some of the instructors did not return to the training schools when the campaign was over because they had become casualties. This meant the training organisation could produce fewer new aircrew to replace losses and for expansion in the longer term.

Unbelievable, but it seems to be the truth. Training really wasn't given the priority it deserved.
 
Unbelievable, but it seems to be the truth. Training really wasn't given the priority it deserved.
But I think it's "a six and two-threes" situation.

If they hadn't stripped their operational training organisation of aircraft and instructors to bring their front-line up to strength for major operations, those major operations (e.g. the invasion of France) might have failed.

IIRC the RAF planned to convert it's operational conversion units into operational squadrons in the event of World War III and during the Falklands some of the FAA's second-line squadrons were upgraded to operational units for the duration of the war. (Which in practice meant they exchanged the 700-799 series squadron number for one in the 800-899 series.)

So there might have been some method to the Luftwaffe's madness.
 
Whilst Training is an important area, they were saddled with too wider range of aircraft - plundered from conquered/assimilated countries. A lot of the Czech aircraft were used in that way, and following the French defeat - French aircraft too. But was the trades were accomplished - flying, W/T, air-gunner navigator etc. then they could go to LW equivalent of OCUs. Yes, they needed to process more potential aircrew more efficiently and more effectively.
Because, after the BoB, they needed to learn lessons fire Schmid told the Lw what he thought they wanted to hear. Increase aircraft production - the Luftwaffe at the time of the Russian invasion still hadn't recovered.
To do that, move Udet somewhere else - anywhere away from factories and production. Milch needs to get in and reorganise it - in OTL he did it later. It means, less aircraft sub-types. and correcting factory inefficiencies.
Replace the FW-200 with increased He-117 aircraft (with four engines),
), aim to replace the medium bombers - He-111 & Ju-88s via a achievable spec!
Harness, the French aircraft industry, if only to build second-line aircraft - trainers etc., with 'modern' French aircraft arrange fly-offs with Axis Allies aircraft - have Hungary, Rumania, or even Italy a better bomber than the Amiot 354, or Leo 451?
 
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