From what I've read, the Finns would be left alone. The three main Baltic people weren't planned for uniform treatment - the Estonians (thanks to the long Swedish rule) would have been 50% Germanized, the others far less lucky.
After generalplan ost
- Thread starter Gedador
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From what I've read, the Finns would be left alone. The three main Baltic people weren't planned for uniform treatment - the Estonians (thanks to the long Swedish rule) would have been 50% Germanized, the others far less lucky.
The Finns are not mentioned.
The Baltic States were, even for the Nazis, a weird mixture. Estonians were to be reduced by under 50%, in fact the head of the Reich Race Police (think about that for a second) Erhard Wetzel has been quoted as saying there should be some consideration given to "Germanizing" the population of Estonia, along with part of the Latvian population (which was earmarked for 50% reduction). Lithuanians were to be, quite literally, obliterated. The surviving versions of the Plan call for a 100% liquidation (apparently they were seen as too "polluted" by Slavic influences).
Bookmark1995
Banned
I think its more complicated than saying "evil doesn't fall down inevitably." Although I do believe that history does follow the long arc of morality, dictatorships don't fall apart because of karma.
The survival of any regime depends on two specifics thing: the ability of everyone to eat well as well as the leaders not being completely self-serving douches. And in general, dictatorships and any kind of despotic are not good at those things.
Whether or not Nazi Germany survives depends on whether or not generalplan ost would actually provide for the population. That is the basic ideology of Germany's eastward expansion. If that were to fail, the Reich would come a tumbling down.
Not sure what you are asking. The quote from Wetzel is in the Wiki article on Generalplan Ost.
BlackDragon98
Banned
What about the Cossacks?
There was some declaration in 1943 about giving them a homeland, though i suspect this is mostly quack given its 1943.
There was some declaration in 1943 about giving them a homeland, though i suspect this is mostly quack given its 1943.
I mean you've told people to read it multiple times before, where do you read it?
Ramontxo
Donor
As it has been stated in other posts it would have been a disastrous failure for the Nazis. How disastrous depending on when the German high command stoped trying
The Nazi definition of Aryan-ness ran on a mix of idiocy, linguistics, phenotypes, political pragmatism and rule of cool. The Cossacks are cool, so they may be defined as Aryan.
As for the aftermath of General Plan Ost, pretty hard to really to predict. A problem the Nazi will have when the War is over, is that united front at home will begin to crack. It’s much easier for the population to ignore the atrocities of their Regime, while fighting a war especially when defeat would be disastrous. Hitler saw much more domestic opposition before the war. I think that the implementation of General Plan Ost really depend on how much effect it will have on the average German citizen. The industrialization of the Holocaust allowed Germany to commit genocide with relative few people being directly involved. But I doubt this can be scaled up, the Jews was easy targets, they could be separated from the general population with little protest or even with broad support from rest of the population in the occupied territories. We can see how much more limited the Holocaust was in occupied or allied states where the Germans meet opposition from the general population or government. But if you begin to random select Ukrainians to “deport” other Ukrainians would object strongly, if for no other reason, because they would be next. But I suspect that singling out the intelligentsia for eradication would be one of the low hanging fruits. So if Germany have commit genocide on this scale, they have to brute force it with use of a large number of soldiers. This is where we likely see public opposition at home, not out of humanitarian concerns, but because most people would see it as meaningless after the War have been won and see large scale conscription as needless sacrifice in peacetime.
So I suspect that we instead see smaller scale regional genocides and real deportations, meant to avoid creating a common front, which would demand the use of a large number of conscripted soldiers. Ethnic mixed areas are also the more likely places for it to happen, as one group can be singled out or one could be used against the other. As example on Crimea the Tartars could be used against the Russians and Ukrainians.
Regarding longevity of the Nazi regime there are a few questions I would like to add for consideration, and apologies if I'm repeating what others have said or asked.
A) how does the German population react to Hitler leading successful consecutive conquests of Poland, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France and the Soviet Union, presumably before the end of 1942?
B) in such a scenario, how long would Britain and the USA deny themselves trading with much of German dominated Europe? (Assuming peace with Britain is achieved prior.)
C) if this is, relatively speaking, a quick War and the Soviet Union up to the Urals is conquered by the end of '42 what are realistic German casualties rates?
D) how quick can the oil flow from the Baku oil fields (and perhaps Iran too), and how does this effect both military and peacetime domestic industry?
E) as mentioned previously by others, feeding people is a large issue - and only semi jokingly I ask, how quickly can the now surplus Panzer I, II and III tanks be converted to tractors? Will Nazi feudal romanticism give way to industrialised farming techniques?
A) how does the German population react to Hitler leading successful consecutive conquests of Poland, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France and the Soviet Union, presumably before the end of 1942?
B) in such a scenario, how long would Britain and the USA deny themselves trading with much of German dominated Europe? (Assuming peace with Britain is achieved prior.)
C) if this is, relatively speaking, a quick War and the Soviet Union up to the Urals is conquered by the end of '42 what are realistic German casualties rates?
D) how quick can the oil flow from the Baku oil fields (and perhaps Iran too), and how does this effect both military and peacetime domestic industry?
E) as mentioned previously by others, feeding people is a large issue - and only semi jokingly I ask, how quickly can the now surplus Panzer I, II and III tanks be converted to tractors? Will Nazi feudal romanticism give way to industrialised farming techniques?
nbcman
Donor
The source document is not in English. There is a summary here:
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/GPO/gpoarticle.HTM
You may be able to find a translated copy somewhere if you search on the Polish author (Madajczyk) and the book (Generalny Plan Wschodni: Zbiór dokumentów).
As I noted earlier, there is no finalized, all signatures attached, version of the Plan since it was continually evolving as the war progressed. The Wiki article is a decent summation.
This site has some excellent references: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/GPO/gpo sources.htm
There are some accessible chapters here of an interesting book I used for research: https://books.google.com/books?id=wGknBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q&f=false
Another interesting article, although limited to Poland: https://web.archive.org/web/20111125231946/http://www.atsweb.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
A number of the more informative articles are, unfortunately, in German. When I was building the opening of AANW (which was supposed to be ALL of AANW) I spent probably too much time using google translate and my old high school German dictionary to get at least a flavor for the overall plan. Overall there is a remarkable amount of information available if one uses Google-Fu.
I would, however, give folks a general caution that the further you slide down this Rabbit Hole the more disturbing some of the side tunnels become. I literally got some nightmares from a few of things I found described in the most clinical, almost casual, language describing mass murder, "scientific experiments" and the like.
Belarus lost 25% of population in just 3 years between Barbarossa and Bagration. Meanwhile in Warthegau % of Poles fell from 88% in 1939 to 67% in 1945. With such pace Third Reich would finish job with Slavs relatively quickly.
Obvious fact, that Slavs would not be happy about being exterminated, would not stop genocide-Dirlewanger and his men were massacring Belarusian villagers quite effectively. Same with Warsaw-200 000 civilians killed, 600 000 deported from the city. German losses-little over 3000 men. And it was biggest war effort of Polish Home Army, long planned operation that would not repeat in every town and every village. Unarmed civilians are just easy prey.
Obvious fact, that Slavs would not be happy about being exterminated, would not stop genocide-Dirlewanger and his men were massacring Belarusian villagers quite effectively. Same with Warsaw-200 000 civilians killed, 600 000 deported from the city. German losses-little over 3000 men. And it was biggest war effort of Polish Home Army, long planned operation that would not repeat in every town and every village. Unarmed civilians are just easy prey.
A) with great joy and a sense of national pride that would make an American crowd chanting U.S.A. at an Olympic sporting event appear to be subversives looking to overthrow the government. There would also likely be massive number of previous doubters who now bought into the idea of a "destined People". It would actually be remarkably hard to prevent this sort of mindset, even if the government wasn't built on German racial superiority as a given fact.
B) If the British have already surrendered there would be trade fairly quickly. Depending on when the British capitulated (yes, capitulated, there was no "reasonable peace" with the Reich, you won or you were conquered and occupied sooner or later, see: Czechoslovakia) the U.S. may never have engaged the Reich at all.
C) Impossible to be certain. It very much depends on when/where the Soviets collapse (which, BTW, is fairly hard to bring about). If the initial shock manages to get Stalin liquidated, or, alternately, if Stalin wipes out his best commanders in the early weeks of the war, the numbers are vastly different than if the collapse happens in late 1942-early 1943, allowing the WAllies to trap a major German ground force in North Africa & the Western Desert and having another full campaign year of the Eastern Front meat grinder.
D) Again, depends on when the Soviet collapse happens. If it is early on, then the oil fields may be surrendered mostly intact, if it is after a hard fight in the South, it would be at least a year, maybe more. The time depends of if the British are already completely vanquished or are still able to resist. With out access to British and U.S. equipment the Reich will have something of struggle in getting thoroughly destroyed production infrastructure back on line.
E) Less trouble than you might imagine. The Reich planned to reduce the population in General Government, Poland, Ukraine and European Russia far more quickly than they expected to refill it with German settlers. In some documents it is stated that the goal is to move 10 million settlers into Poland/General Government over a decade. Since those areas will have had 30+ million people "removed", with the survivors working at starvation rations, including those working on farms, you would have the entire Steppe's output available to feed what would eventually be roughly 60+ million fewer people (as Extermination through Labor combined with those transported virtual certain death in Western Siberia). Food, well at least for German citizens than those personnel selected for "Germanization", would not be a serious issue.
I am doubling down on this recommendation. Idi i smort (“come and see”) is a clear warning. I think my nightmares stopped eighteen months after I finished the triple sized university course.
BlackDragon98
Banned
Generalplan Ost was planned by a vegetarian failure of an artist, a chicken farmer, a notorious womanizer, a overweight morphine addict, a rambling literature professor, and a crowd of sycophantic losers.
Thus, its going to make no sense and abide by no logic.
Trying to understand what their plans were is impossible because they either kept changing or got more stupid by the minute.
Thus, its going to make no sense and abide by no logic.
Trying to understand what their plans were is impossible because they either kept changing or got more stupid by the minute.
But the genocide was implemented by Higher Doctorate and Doctorate recipients, academics, business leaders, serious administrators (policy control), railway logistics experts and people trained by the staff system.
The fantasy might be batshit. The implementation achieved throughput effectiveness with moderate efficiency. Almost like a train timetable. Or light industrial machine manufacturing.