African Stability

I challenge the minds of AH to come up with scenarios that could result in a much more stable and developed Sub-Saharan Africa that is not driven by domination of a apartheid system. Basicly how can we get African National nations in Africa that are great powers before 1900?
 
Earlier European discovery and less colonialism (more protectorates or vice-royalties or whatever)

Alternatively less European dominance and more eastern control might help? I think a number of "African" states were set up by the Omani Empire. These could easily break away...
 
Their is the "Zulu Heart" scenario where Alexander stays alive, marries into the Ethiopian Royal Family with Egypt+ Carthage destroying Rome and then Egypt + Ethiopia become the centers of learning and colonize America with white slaves from Europa.
 

Ceranthor

Banned
I think it's really difficult to have a Sub-Saharan state become a great power per se, but you could easily have some stable, independent nations that might avoid colonization entirely.

For example, if one of the various civilizations at Great Zimbabwe could develop a powerful military to back up their economic strength, we could see a solid nation existing there for a long time. Furthermore, if they could somehow gain control over the nearby coastal city states(Kilwa, Sofala), and repel the Portuguese and the Omanis when they try to take them over, then we could have a proper empire based around Great Zimbabwe, wealthy from trading with half the world, and armed with a military potent enough to repel any potential threats. Basically, if you could get Great Zimbabwe dominion over the African coast, and a military strong enough to protect its interests, then we could see a state stable and powerful enough to repel incoming European powers, at least for a while.

Another route you could take would be to have the Bantu migrations start maybe a thousand years earlier, so that their colonization of South Africa and the Cape would have happened faster. OTL Bantu tribes like the Xhosa were unable to colonize the Cape of Good Hope because their crops were incompatible, but maybe with an extra thousand years they would be able to work out a system that would allow them to settle there(With the thousand year-boost, they would likely get to the Cape around 200 B.C, and start settling it around 800-1000 A.D, while OTL they only reached Natal around 1500 A.D). Furthermore, if you could have some kind of great military leader arise around then, we could see Shaka-esque military reforms occuring, making the Bantu military a force to be reckoned with. With this army, the southern Bantu tribes could form an empire(or a number of empires) over most of South Africa, which would make colonization attempts by the Dutch or Portuguese nearly impossible. OTL settlers from Lisbon and Batavia only had to contend with the native Khoisan peoples, who were no match for white firepower, but such a victory against a centralized, powerful Bantu empire with potent military strength would be near-impossible for settlers, and very difficult for even a professional European army.

I would personally go with the second option as the most likely bet for a Sub-Saharan nation that could at least resist European occupation and become as powerful as, say, 19th century Italy. A Great Zimbabwe empire, while powerful and wealthy, would lose everything if its trade networks were destroyed(something the Portuguese had the potential to do). A stable, militarily powerful Bantu nation in the Cape of Good Hope would likely be almost unassailable, and, after repeated failures to conquer it, European powers would likely just lose interest. So if you did go down that road, a Cape Bantu kingdom could remain independent till the late 19th century(at least) or become a decently-sized nation with a moderate share of wealth and power.
 
A stronger Ethiopia would be an easy route, but you'd probably have to do something about the religion issue. Either stop Islam before it starts or have Ethiopia convert to Islam - That way, an Ethiopia-based power could remain influential around the horn. This Ethiopia could project its power as far north as Yemen and Nubia, and south along the Swahili coast... Perhaps East Africa might develop a mixed Bantu-Amharic lingua franca instead Swahili, with city-states dominated by Ethiopian nobles. Trade from the coast spreads to the interior, and perhaps the Ethiopian power would have direct contact with the gold kingdoms in Zimbabwe. We might even get Ethiopian colonies in the Persian Gulf and India... That's a very optimistic fantasy, anyway.

There's also the Kongo kingdom, which showed a remarkable propensity to absorb foreign ideas and adaptations.
 
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I think it's really difficult to have a Sub-Saharan state become a great power per se, but you could easily have some stable, independent nations that might avoid colonization entirely.

For example, if one of the various civilizations at Great Zimbabwe could develop a powerful military to back up their economic strength, we could see a solid nation existing there for a long time. Furthermore, if they could somehow gain control over the nearby coastal city states(Kilwa, Sofala), and repel the Portuguese and the Omanis when they try to take them over, then we could have a proper empire based around Great Zimbabwe, wealthy from trading with half the world, and armed with a military potent enough to repel any potential threats. Basically, if you could get Great Zimbabwe dominion over the African coast, and a military strong enough to protect its interests, then we could see a state stable and powerful enough to repel incoming European powers, at least for a while.

Another route you could take would be to have the Bantu migrations start maybe a thousand years earlier, so that their colonization of South Africa and the Cape would have happened faster. OTL Bantu tribes like the Xhosa were unable to colonize the Cape of Good Hope because their crops were incompatible, but maybe with an extra thousand years they would be able to work out a system that would allow them to settle there(With the thousand year-boost, they would likely get to the Cape around 200 B.C, and start settling it around 800-1000 A.D, while OTL they only reached Natal around 1500 A.D). Furthermore, if you could have some kind of great military leader arise around then, we could see Shaka-esque military reforms occuring, making the Bantu military a force to be reckoned with. With this army, the southern Bantu tribes could form an empire(or a number of empires) over most of South Africa, which would make colonization attempts by the Dutch or Portuguese nearly impossible. OTL settlers from Lisbon and Batavia only had to contend with the native Khoisan peoples, who were no match for white firepower, but such a victory against a centralized, powerful Bantu empire with potent military strength would be near-impossible for settlers, and very difficult for even a professional European army.

I would personally go with the second option as the most likely bet for a Sub-Saharan nation that could at least resist European occupation and become as powerful as, say, 19th century Italy. A Great Zimbabwe empire, while powerful and wealthy, would lose everything if its trade networks were destroyed(something the Portuguese had the potential to do). A stable, militarily powerful Bantu nation in the Cape of Good Hope would likely be almost unassailable, and, after repeated failures to conquer it, European powers would likely just lose interest. So if you did go down that road, a Cape Bantu kingdom could remain independent till the late 19th century(at least) or become a decently-sized nation with a moderate share of wealth and power.

The main problem is that the crops associated with the Bantu peoples were unsuitable for the Cape of Good Hope. I've always wondered about the potential of a Phoenician or Carthaginian colony planted in the area in ancient times - There's a lot of talk about Punic expeditions down the African coast, and even speculation of circumnavigations of the entire continent. Their Mediterranean agricultural package would be perfect for the Cape of Good Hope.
 
More conversion in potentially Christian/syncretic-Christian African states such as the Kongo, leading to less aggressive policies towards such states. What nations would they be besides the aforementioned Kingdom of Kongo?
 
More conversion in potentially Christian/syncretic-Christian African states such as the Kongo, leading to less aggressive policies towards such states. What nations would they be besides the aforementioned Kingdom of Kongo?

We do need some more Congo TL!
 
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