Africa been colonized longer

Hercules

Banned
I think that colonizing a big county like that is hard when it is unified like Japan was. India was colonized because it had no central authority after the Mughals fell, and the Europeans moved in. China and Turkey were disunited, but had a lot of territory to bleed while they tried to westernize, so they succeeded in westernizing eventually even though they weren't ready for it like Japan. Pre-Spanish Mexico and Peru were unified (okay Mexico was only superficially unified), but got knockout blows from plague because they were new worlders and, let's face it, they were really unlucky militarily. I'm not an expert on this though.
I'm from Somalia had to correct you on one thing fish is our major economy but it isn't gone due to people not liking to eat fish hear but sheep. You made some good points today and had a good discussion with you
 

Hercules

Banned
I think that colonizing a big county like that is hard when it is unified like Japan was. India was colonized because it had no central authority after the Mughals fell, and the Europeans moved in. China and Turkey were disunited, but had a lot of territory to bleed while they tried to westernize, so they succeeded in westernizing eventually even though they weren't ready for it like Japan. Pre-Spanish Mexico and Peru were unified (okay Mexico was only superficially unified), but got knockout blows from plague because they were new worlders and, let's face it, they were really unlucky militarily. I'm not an expert on this though.
What dynasty was China in during the turn of the 20th century
 
South Africa went through aparthied and it's a well developed countries compared to other countries in a Africa. Whats the key factor enabling a country that has been totally dependent on it colonised then become a first world country. While Ethiopia never experienced coloniasm in a long expeneded time it's one of the poorest countries in world with a gdp per capital of 700. While Honk Kong who gained it independence on 1990,s from UK is a major metropolis a booming city. So dose longer colonisation make a country better off

One thing to be mindful is that South Africa is only well developed for whites during the Apartheid. The level of development decreases a lot if one spread it for the whole population.

@Marius
 
It's not. Parts of Somalia are trying to break away today. And its main natural resource was fish, which is gone because of overfishing. Besides, as FillyofDelphi pointed out, "pulling a Meiji" isn't something every country can do. Pre-colonial Somalia was a group of strong sultanates with backing from the Ottomans that might have held some promise for at least doing what Ethiopia did IOTL, but they were obliterated by Europeans.

Somalia is a sadly ironic exemplar of the difficulties of African politics: Almost the only ethnically homogeneous state in Africa, it is riven instead by relentless clan conflict. You can't win for losing.
 

Hercules

Banned
One thing to be mindful is that South Africa is only well developed for whites during the Apartheid. The level of development decreases a lot if one spread it for the whole population.

@Marius
I heard white South African s were being mudered in the farms by the locals really sad
 

Hercules

Banned
Ban
Somalia is a sadly ironic exemplar of the difficulties of African politics: Almost the only ethnically homogeneous state in Africa, it is riven instead by relentless clan conflict. You can't win for losing.
Pre colonial Somalia was never a unified state but a group of sultan's as Admiral Klach said. After independence. Nationalism was a big deal in the country . Somalispot aren't ethnically pure. 4 clans in somalia have different heritages. Some are from Arabia,India and bantus. After independence mostly Arab somalia were in control. After bantus and original somalis started getting mad that a mud blood was in control of thier country the chaos broke out
For past 30 years or so. But now there's the transitional federal govt in charge the leader happens to be a mud blood and 30 years went to waste my opinion if you fought 30 years to over throw ethnically cleanse Arab somalis. And yet one becomes your leader again
 
I heard white South African s were being mudered in the farms by the locals really sad

One must note this is due to widespread banditry, not "racial revenge" as some nutty far-right groups try to imply. Black farmers get killed too, but their death go under-reported.
 
In Africa borders between countries were drawn up with little regard for ethnic realities, which made development of a national consciousness difficult. Of course, the colonizing powers really did not want that to develop. The more benign colonizers did make efforts to install things like a decent legal system (although two tier), did have some level of education/training, and some physical infrastructure. For a variety of reasons after WWII the colonial powers decided it was time to go (physically forced out, unwilling to pay to stay, or whatever) and basically walked away, tossing the keys to the locals on the way out. There was very little if any serious effort for a transition. Since prior to WWII there were really no plans for the colonial powers to leave and have their erstwhile colonies self governing, you simply did not have the conditions for things to hold together. You did not have enough educated trained folks to keep the wheels turning, there had been ceilings on how high locals could get whether on the shop floor or in public services (courts etc). Africans are no more or less intelligent and capable than anyone else, however absent education/training it doesn't work - you can't have someone with practical nurse training all of a sudden told to do major surgery on their own, or a court clerk promoted to district judge because the superstructure of the system is gone. This is true all up and down the chain. If you had a company and all of a sudden basically all of upper and most of middle management left, and on the shop floor the supervisors and QA folks left abruptly, what do you think would happen??

Had the plan of the colonizers been to develop these colonies to a place where locals would be co-equals in running things, even as part of the "empire" or if when they decided to leave they simply did not walk away, things would have been different. While not perfect, the Roman Empire was so successful in part because if you were a Roman Citizen, that made you a more or less equal part of the system. Sure there were class differences, and levels of prejudice, but citizens were citizens. In colonial Africa, the locals were never so considered.
 
Pre colonial Somalia was never a unified state but a group of sultan's as Admiral Klach said. After independence. Nationalism was a big deal in the country . Somalispot aren't ethnically pure. 4 clans in somalia have different heritages. Some are from Arabia,India and bantus. After independence mostly Arab somalia were in control. After bantus and original somalis started getting mad that a mud blood was in control of thier country the chaos broke out

This is where one gets into the murky aspects of delineating an "enthnicity." We could say there is more to define Somalis generally in terms of genetics, language, and culture than we can say of the population of any other continental African nation; but in the end, it is still a somewhat arbitrary exercise...

But I agree: there is nothing in Somali history that remotely suggested strong material for a unified state of any sort. But that is a common tale in post-colonial Africa, alas.
 
Pre colonial Somalia was never a unified state but a group of sultan's as Admiral Klach said. After independence. Nationalism was a big deal in the country . Somalispot aren't ethnically pure. 4 clans in somalia have different heritages. Some are from Arabia,India and bantus. After independence mostly Arab somalia were in control. After bantus and original somalis started getting mad that a mud blood was in control of thier country the chaos broke out
For past 30 years or so. But now there's the transitional federal govt in charge the leader happens to be a mud blood and 30 years went to waste my opinion if you fought 30 years to over throw ethnically cleanse Arab somalis. And yet one becomes your leader again
You're not Somali and stop spreading false information such as this. Some clans claim lineage to Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) as a way to show they have divine favour and should be followed by other clans. Everything else you wrote is a crock of bullshit. The non-Somali origin clans have had zero power.
 
Cairo

If Japan was never colonized and look at it today why didn't Ethiopia and Liberia have the same equal opportunity as Japan
Liberia arguably was colonized by Americans; albeit not officially. Still many of the institutions that generally related to a colony were in place in Liberia; there was a clear ruling class/race (Liberian-Americans), corrupt elections (look at 1927), a one-party system, forced labour, and a suppression of many natives to support a ruling class. It ended just like most African colonies did, with a bloody revolution and civil war.
 
Cairo

If Japan was never colonized and look at it today why didn't Ethiopia and Liberia have the same equal opportunity as Japan
Ethiopia was isolated from the rest of the world when it was driven away from the coast and into the mountains by it's Islamic neighbours so never had the chance to develop a society on the same developmental level as say Egypt. It's not really true to say Liberia was never colonised. While never a formal US possession it was used by the US as a settler colony for freed slaves who had no link to the native population.
 
Ethiopia was isolated from the rest of the world when it was driven away from the coast and into the mountains by it's Islamic neighbours so never had the chance to develop a society on the same developmental level as say Egypt.
Could Ethiopia develop along the lines of Egypt if she had maintained a coastline?
 
It opens them up to the worlds commerce allowing the easier movement of ideas, and they would have direct contact with Egypt, as well as distant India, both more advanced societies.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Pre colonial Somalia was never a unified state but a group of sultan's as Admiral Klach said. After independence. Nationalism was a big deal in the country . Somalispot aren't ethnically pure. 4 clans in somalia have different heritages. Some are from Arabia,India and bantus. After independence mostly Arab somalia were in control. After bantus and original somalis started getting mad that a mud blood was in control of thier country the chaos broke out
For past 30 years or so. But now there's the transitional federal govt in charge the leader happens to be a mud blood and 30 years went to waste my opinion if you fought 30 years to over throw ethnically cleanse Arab somalis. And yet one becomes your leader again
It is possible that you are a native Somalian, although your apparent weakness regarding the country's history makes that questionable, as does the fact that you are posting from the U.S Midwest.

In any case your posts seem to be quite bigoted overall, not to mention what seems to express a general approval of ethic cleansing, at least as long as it is toward "Arabs".

Looks like trolling straight out of the gate from this vantage point.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you
 
It is possible that you are a native Somalian, although your apparent weakness regarding the country's history makes that questionable, as does the fact that you are posting from the U.S Midwest.

In any case your posts seem to be quite bigoted overall, not to mention what seems to express a general approval of ethic cleansing, at least as long as it is toward "Arabs".

Looks like trolling straight out of the gate from this vantage point.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you
Thanks for that, and its Somali not somalian.
 
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