Afghanistan enters World War II on the side of the Axis

CaliGuy

Banned
For the record, I previously made a similar thread about Afghanistan entering World War I on the side of the Central Powers.

Anyway, what if Afghanistan entered World War II on the side of the Axis in either 1940 or 1941 in an attempt to annex some additional territory?

How much of an effect would this have on the war? Also, what would have happened to Afghanistan after the end of the war in this TL?
 
The Soviets send a few divisions against Northern Afghanistan while the British Dominion sends troops to hold the roads and entreats the tribal Afghanistani in the Southern region to stay loyal or neutral to their presence while Kabul is starve of resources and funds to from the Northern occupation by Soviet troops fighting both Pro-Axis Afghan troops and irregulars and Partisans fighting against the communist regime.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The Soviets send a few divisions against Northern Afghanistan while the British Dominion sends troops to hold the roads and entreats the tribal Afghanistani in the Southern region to stay loyal or neutral to their presence while Kabul is starve of resources and funds to from the Northern occupation by Soviet troops fighting both Pro-Axis Afghan troops and irregulars and Partisans fighting against the communist regime.

As above. The Anglo-Soviet division of Persia is expanded to Afghanistan.

It doesn't take too long and doesn't really expend too many extra resources.

Does either the Soviet Union or British India annex any Afghan territory after the end of the war, though?
 
Does either the Soviet Union or British India annex any Afghan territory after the end of the war, though?

There might be some post-war fiasco akin to that which occurred in occupied Iran during late-1945/1946, but I'm doubtful they attempt any annexations as opposed to trying to set up some kinda client state.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
There might be some post-war fiasco akin to that which occurred in occupied Iran during late-1945/1946, but I'm doubtful they attempt any annexations as opposed to trying to set up some kinda client state.
Would any Soviet-supported client states in Afghanistan actually last, though?
 
For the record, I previously made a similar thread about Afghanistan entering World War I on the side of the Central Powers.

Anyway, what if Afghanistan entered World War II on the side of the Axis in either 1940 or 1941 in an attempt to annex some additional territory?

How much of an effect would this have on the war? Also, what would have happened to Afghanistan after the end of the war in this TL?
The Kingdom of Afghanistan was a very delicate state where the King kept the tribes and ethnicities in line through a mixture of bribes and military force. If the king has the military go on the offensive against foreigners rather than continue to police the population and spends his money on weapons rather than on keeping powerful clans happy, then Afghanistan is done as a state. The creation of client states wouldn't occur in the messy way it did in Iran, but would rather be a matter of the UK and USSR picking up the pieces that happen to gravitate towards them. I could certainly see a powerful Pashtun clan leader or two opt to become Princes of the British Raj if it meant a steady supply of SMLEs for their border wars.
 

Deleted member 94680

Does either the Soviet Union or British India annex any Afghan territory after the end of the war, though?

The Kingdom of Afghanistan was a very delicate state where the King kept the tribes and ethnicities in line through a mixture of bribes and military force. If the king has the military go on the offensive against foreigners rather than continue to police the population and spends his money on weapons rather than on keeping powerful clans happy, then Afghanistan is done as a state. The creation of client states wouldn't occur in the messy way it did in Iran, but would rather be a matter of the UK and USSR picking up the pieces that happen to gravitate towards them. I could certainly see a powerful Pashtun clan leader or two opt to become Princes of the British Raj if it meant a steady supply of SMLEs for their border wars.

This.

It might suit British India to 'enlarge' the North West Frontier Province to prevent the cross-border raids, by moving the border. But unless the moves were commenced during the War, come the Labour administration and their desire to Quit India, any annexation plans would probably be shelved.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
This.

It might suit British India to 'enlarge' the North West Frontier Province to prevent the cross-border raids, by moving the border. But unless the moves were commenced during the War, come the Labour administration and their desire to Quit India, any annexation plans would probably be shelved.
Couldn't Pakistan want any annexation plans to go on ahead, though? After all, having more territory seems like a win for Pakistan.
 
Couldn't Pakistan want any annexation plans to go on ahead, though? After all, having more territory seems like a win for Pakistan.

Because having East Pakistan turned out so well.

Let's see. Afghanistan, a place of warring factions, few resources, limited infrastructure, hell to govern, a long history of clans quite happy to raid and despoil and wreck internal and external relations. On the plus side, it colours in a bit of the map the same colour as Pakistan. Tough call.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Because having East Pakistan turned out so well.

It had a huge population and was separated from Pakistan by India; neither of these things would be true if Pakistan annexed a part of Afghanistan.

Let's see. Afghanistan, a place of warring factions, few resources, limited infrastructure, hell to govern, a long history of clans quite happy to raid and despoil and wreck internal and external relations. On the plus side, it colours in a bit of the map the same colour as Pakistan. Tough call.

Pakistan has some Pashtun-majority areas; if they were so worthless, surely Pakistan would have been willing to hand over these areas to Afghanistan.
 
Pakistan has some Pashtun-majority areas; if they were so worthless, surely Pakistan would have been willing to hand over these areas to Afghanistan.

There's a psychological difference between handing over worthless stuff one has, and taking over worthless stuff someone else has.

Of course, potential annexation would in part depend on when it took place, and what relations with India happened to be at the time.
 

Deleted member 94680

Mr @CaliGuy doesn't quite "get" annexation and expansion of nations. We've gone over the same type of point many times before.

There's a world of difference between British India taking some of the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and the modern, "artificial", multi-ethnic, state of Pakistan taking areas of Afghanistan. Surely you can see this?
 
"However, events in Europe-—particularly the German annexation of Austria in March 1938 and Czechoslovakia in the following year, as well as a nonaggression pact signed with the Soviet Union in August 1939-—were omens of war, and the Kabul government decided it did not want closer ties with the Nazi regime in Berlin. At the declaration of war, Zahir Shah immediately proclaimed Afghanistan's neutrality; the amir was determined to keep his country out of the conflict. Germany, conscious of Afghanistan's strategic location, considered supporting a pro-Amanullah coup to establish a sympathetic government in Kabul. German officials and Afghan supporters of the former king were sent to Moscow to test Russian reaction to the idea, but they received a noncommittal response and the project was shelved.

"Following the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, Russia and Britain were allied again and adopted a common stance with regard to the situation in Afghanistan. In separate moves, the two governments demanded the evacuation of all Axis nationals in October 1941, a move that Afghanistan resented as an infringement of its sovereignty but still complied with, and all Axis nationals left for India under the promise of free passage to a neutral country. Although Axis diplomats were allowed to remain, their attempts to foment a rising against Britain among the Pashtun tribes on the Indian side of the border were unsuccessful. *Despite sympathy for the Germans because of their traditional enmity with Britain, armed cooperation with Germany was never a realistic proposition for Kabul.* [my emphasis--DT] *Conflict in Afghanistan: A Historical Encyclopedia,* articele "Afghan-German relations" https://books.google.com/books?id=bv4hzxpo424C&pg=PA7

I would modify the emphasized statement in one respect: I could see Afghanistan geting involved in 1940-1 *if* the USSR approved *and* if it were absolutely clear that Britain was about to be defeated. Short of that, it is just way too risky. (And after June 22, 1941, forget it: fighting both the British and the Soviets at once would be crazy--again unless it was clear the Allies were on the verge of collapse.)

What about Amanullah? He was unpopular, and would be even more so if the godless Bolsheviks were seen as the force restoring him to power in 1940-1--even assuming the Soviets wanted to and were capable of doing so. In the unlikely event he were restored in that way, he would have his hands full quelling rebellions in his own country, and would not be able to attack British India effectively.
 
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By May 1940 the British Staff in India proposed a plan for defense against a Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, although in such a contingency the forces were to shield India rather than prop up its neighbor. The plan called for an armored division, five infantry divisions, and an independent infantry brigade, of which the only troops actually available for employment amounted to four infantry brigades. Less ambitious plans were adopted, but were of no use as the war played out. Although, this plan could likely be used against the Afghans themselves.

Afghanistan had at it's disposal Nine "mixed" divisions, one Royal Household Division, one artillery division, one independent "mixed" infantry regiment, one independent cavalry brigade plus five aircraft which equated to ~80-120,000 men plus another 20-30,000 in tribal levies. The attacks by the Panjub tribesmen had pretty much been silenced the decade and two previous, the Afghan government might be able to get some tribes to raid the Indian frontier but they would be of little over-all value.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Mr @CaliGuy doesn't quite "get" annexation and expansion of nations. We've gone over the same type of point many times before.

There's a world of difference between British India taking some of the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and the modern, "artificial", multi-ethnic, state of Pakistan taking areas of Afghanistan. Surely you can see this?
Pakistan did take over some buffer states on the Afghan border regions , like Kalat, and later Dir-Bajaur.

I expect Pakistan to take some territory if it seem feasible. On the other hand Pakistan might prefer its cheaper pre-79 OTL option of dealing with the border tribes, which was to bomb them when they got too irritating.
 
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