Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by False Dmitri, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. Tsochar Well-Known Member

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    In all honesty I think much the same as it is except the Miami area would be smaller.

    Port Arthur, I think, is the closest sea port to Mexico in ASB territory, so it would probably be the size of McAllen or El Paso in TTL.
     
  2. Tsochar Well-Known Member

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    Next draft of GDP per capita. I think I like the ordering in this one, but I'm not sure about the spread.

    Massachusetts Bay $ 95,699
    Lower Connecticut $ 94,319
    Labrador $ 87,699
    New Netherland $ 77,545
    Assiniboia $ 68,998
    Pennsylvania $ 64,880
    Bermuda $ 60,902
    Lower Virginia $ 59,828
    Maryland $ 59,179
    Vermont $ 58,392
    Upper Connecticut $ 58,259
    Saybrook $ 54,493
    Dakota $ 53,140
    Vineyards $ 52,515
    Canada $ 47,476
    Upper Country $ 45,979
    Plymouth $ 45,457
    Cayman Islands $ 44,639
    Saint John's I $ 43,120
    New Hampshire $ 42,627
    Rhode Island $ 42,092
    Lower Louisiana $ 41,644
    Upper Louisiana $ 41,417
    Ohio $ 40,935
    Christiana $ 39,880
    New Scotland $ 39,838
    St. P and M $ 39,792
    Illinois $ 39,742
    Huronia $ 37,931
    Carolina $ 37,006
    Allegheny $ 36,931
    Newfoundland $ 36,506
    Arques $ 35,982
    Bahamas $ 34,753
    Poutaxia $ 34,104
    Iroquoia $ 34,065
    Cherokee $ 32,027
    Cuba $ 31,887
    West Florida $ 30,281
    Choctaw $ 29,508
    Muscogia $ 28,778
    Upper Virginia $ 26,239
    West Acadia $ 25,784
    Chicasaw $ 25,251
    Watauga $ 24,785
    Seminol $ 24,507
    East Florida $ 23,864
    East Acadia $ 22,811
    East Dominica $ 18,722
    West Dominica $ 13,736
     
  3. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Happy Easter, everyone. This is what Easter sounds like in western Carolina.

     
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  4. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Thinking out loud about the remaining state flags. There are two states that have maps and history but no flags, and I think the reason is that there are OTL flags that are almost too perfect.

    labrador.png

    Labrador's flag was designed by a local politician in the 1970s. It uses simple nature symbolism: snow, land, and sea, with a spruce branch as the main symbol. It's hard to improve on. TTL's Labrador achieved statehood in the 1950s, so I think using a convergent flag would be justifiable.

    saint-louis.png

    The flag of St. Louis is also hard to ignore. It's damn beautiful with elements that perfectly reflect TTL's Upper Louisiana - the convergence of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers and the fleur-de-lis, a symbol shared by the other states that descend from the Louisiana colony (Lower Louisiana, the Arques, Illinois). It's more problematic because the symbolism is complex, referring to events that aren't relevant to Upper Louisiana. It's also a mid 20th-century design, but the state most likely adopted its flag in the decade or two before 1900. I've toyed with modifying it as I did with the OTL Quebec flag, but any change seems to weaken it visually. The sheer awesomeness of the flag is interfering with my attempts to design a new one.

    So I think I can go ahead, for now, abd use the real life flag for Labrador. Upper Louisiana remains a puzzle, but I want to use the St. Louis flag as a starting point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  5. Daedalus Well-Known Member

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    Hello, big fan of the work you have been creating here! I'm generally delighted in seeing that the Native American populations tend to be better represented in these maps, both in terms of general population, the creation of states or autonomous regions. Scrolling a ways back through your content, you put forth the Iroquoia update and found it pretty interesting, but that got me thinking about the development of the Beaver Wars in this timeline. It was mentioned that some form of them did occur (referencing the Nippising Country post and another post as to why the Dhegida Sioux(Quapaw, Omaha, Osage, Ponca, etc) weren't in the upper Ohio valley) but the Iroquoia post made no mention of them. The Beaver Wars happened largely after 1600 (1628 w/ the Mahican, 1638 w/ the Wenro, 1648 w/ the Huron, 1651 w/ the Neutral, 1654 w/ the Erie, 1660 w/ the Susquehannock) and did drive many tribal migrations from the Ohio and Great Lakes area westward. This was touched on in the Ohio post, but the details of who-got-moved-where is a blur.

    What was the extent of these wars? Since the Iroquois had a policy of assimilating prisoners of war to replace lost populations, many nations such as the Wenro, Neutral, Hurons, Erie, and Susquehannocks-all Iroquoian-speaking peoples- quickly died out as they were assimilated into the Five Tribes OTL. To what extent do these tribes and their cultures exist, if at all? The Iroquoian districts of Niagara and Erie, for starters, were the homelands of the Wenro and Erie peoples. Poutaxia is depicted with Iroquois people in the north where the Susquehannocks; were they taken in as another part of the Iroquois community or do they still have some villages?

    What happened to the Huron and Neutral people? Wyandot is spoken in Ohio, so they are still around, but are the Neutral still kicking or did they merge with the Wyandot or assimilate into the Iroquois?
     
  6. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Thanks very much. Now another theme is a generally less rigid barrier between the different races. So, while many indigenous groups have more autonomy than in OTL, a few actually have less, since they merged with the local white population rather than get confined to reservations. This is the case with the Lenape, for example. They have no political unit of their own, since the legitimate descendant of their nation is simply the state of Christiana.

    The short answer is that it's a blur because so far it's blurry in my mind. There's a book on my shelf all about the Iroquois dependent tribes. I've picked it up and abandoned it a few times... not because it's particularly difficult, it's just been bad timing. So I've avoided committing to too much detail about the dependent tribes because I've felt that gap in my own knowledge.

    That said, I've been assuming that the Beaver Wars happened more or less as in OTL. They are an important precursor to the relationship between Canada and the interior as I've mapped it out so far, a relationship that gave rise to the present-day states of Huronia, the Upper Country, and to some extent Ohio.

    Of the tribes you've mentioned, I've had the Hurons follow basically the same history as in OTL, with many settling in Ohio to regroup as the Wyandot. Others almost certainly moved to protected lands on the St. Lawrence, though here again I have avoided committing to a lot of details about which nations live where within Canada, again because I want to wait until I can do it properly.

    I've also outlined the history of the Susquehannock. Some resettled in Iroquoia as dependents, but larger numbers moved inside the borders of Christiana and Maryland. In Christiana, they intermarried with the Lenape and mostly lost their distinctness. In Maryland, they kept an autonomous government that evolved into Susquehannock County. The status of that county is sort of midway between a regular county and what we would recognize as a reservation. It is integrated into the state but has kept some privileges due to its special history, such as a particular system of land ownership that takes into account former tribal customs.

    I have assumed that these groups lived as dependents among the Iroquois for a number of years, as in OTL. Then, once the TTL regions of Niagara and Erie were confirmed as Iroquois territory, they attracted many of those same groups. The Iroquoia post says: "Some important early settlers [in Erie and Niagara] were non-Iroquois Indians who had lived among the Iroquois for generations. These included significant numbers of Lenape and some groups who traced their ancestry to pre-colonial Virginia. These groups had been denied a voice in Iroquois politics, and many chose to move to Erie." That passage in particular is one that I had planned to flesh out better once I had done more research.

    Tentatively, I think that those groups, along with the Wenro, mostly assimilated with Iroquois language and culture and no longer exist as coherent units, but that their descendants continue to identify with them. So you can point to towns and villages in Iroquoia, especially in the Erie region, that identify with those nations, but life in those villages isn't terribly different from in the older core parts of Iroquoia. Other descendants, as you say, were involved in re-forming the Wyandot in 18th-century Ohio.

    Now I've been saying all this in the first person because this is an area of the project that I've mostly handled myself. But you clearly know some things about it, and if you have ideas for fleshing out some of this, they're definitely welcome.
     
  7. Daedalus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for answering my questions! That certainly helps clear some things up. I only really have a few comments, the first regarding the large Iroquois area in Poutaxia. I thought it would be far smaller since they didn't seem to really expand into new lands for settling and more for hunting, which is why Niagara and Erie were largely uninhabited, perfect for settling by other peoples. This could be offset by saying that Poutaxia's Iroquois are largely Metis/mixed descent, close enough to the core lands to be heavily influenced by the Iroquois to retain the language. The same would be true probably for any Iroquois-speakers in Allegheny.

    Otherwise, I would expect more pockets of speakers in Erie and Niagara as well as in the New Netherlands territories like around Oswego and the Mohawk River Valley since they seem to hold North Poutaxia pretty firmly in language. I can see the languages spread out in the usual "stripes": Mohawk in the east with NW New Netherlands speaking it save for some pockets of Oneida; the Poutaxians speak Onondaga, Tuscarora, and Cayuga; the Allegheny Iroquois probably speak Seneca.

    Another interesting idea would be an Iroquoian-speaking people who do not identify with the 8 Nations; perhaps the descendants of exiles or defectors, or people seeking a better life outside of the Ontario lakeside. These people (perhaps identifying as the Mingwe?) would speak Iroquoian, but prefer to be outside of it's jursidiction and so vote for joining Poutaxia or Allegheny when those states get formed. In theory the Susquehannock work here too as their language was similar and also they lived in the area, but as you said, most migrated south.
     
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  8. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Almost definitely those areas contain many Mixed people. But also, those areas are just sparsely populated. Northern Poutaxia is rugged and its villages are isolated, at least they were before they became a vacation getaway. Major White settlement focused on more productive lands, and these regions were left to the proud but impoverished descendants of various indigenous tribes, with Iroquois serving as a common language. In Allegheny, there was some westward settlement of Iroquois people, but this largely occurred at the very end of the 18th and start of the 19th century, a time when our own Iroquois were being confined to ever-smaller reservations in the US and Canada. This timeline's Iroquois, their numbers augmented by intermarriage with various other groups, did engage in some colonization, though definitely not on the scale of the Whites.

    This is accurate, and there's a conversation a few pages back about the Iroquois cultural presence in New Netherland. The old Mohawk capitals of Canajoharie and Tiononderoge are part of New Netherland. They still have a large Iroquois population and for a long time maintained political links with Iroquoia - two of many condominium areas shared by the two states, a system that survives today in the Joint State Parks, all of which are in NN territory but which are considered to be the joint property of NN and Iroquoia. I can find those posts later when I have more time.

    In addition to those towns and parks, the Adirondacks and other rural parts of New Netherland also have sizeable Iroquois populations.

    Yes, I think many of the "Iroquois" people outside the state proper identify as Mingo/Mingwe. I know the Mingo have come up before once or twice, I believe in connection with Ohio. That connection would also do a good job explaining the populations in Allegheny and Poutaxia. Maybe that explains why the borders are where they are, I like that idea.
     
  9. Somebody-Someone Well-Known Member

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    This project needs more Mi'kmaq!
     
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  10. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Mi'kmaq is one of West Acadia's official languages. The other three Acadian states have small Mi'kmaq populations, but they're not as large or as concentrated. I've read a little bit about Mi'kmaq history and culture and folklore, but not incorporated much of it into the project so far. Is there something you have in mind?
     
  11. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill Gone Fishin'

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  12. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    It's right for the PoD and certainly weird enough to use. I have written on my site (but not posted here, as far as I know) that St. Barts is a Swedish colony as in OTL, but that the Tsar's branch of the Knights owns the fort there, alluding to their past possession of the island. I'd like the island to stay Swedish, as befits the maximal Russo-Swedo-Polono-wank that is the Imperial Commonwealth; but that still leaves room for the Knights to be more involved in the rule of either that island or any of the other ones that they colonized, within the Union of Antillean States, of course.

    @Pempelune is the creator of the UAS, so I'll defer to him.

    Side note, it's fun seeing that Wikipedia page, I'm the one who wrote it, years ago. I've enjoyed seeing it make its mark on AH and worldbuilding, since I don't think those events were at all well known before I wrote it. :)
     
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  13. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill Gone Fishin'

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    Well you could always ping @Pempelune to see if he's around (or PM him).

    You know what other confederation could fit into the Hospitaller colony (out of the four islands they colonized, let's pick St. Christopher because reasons): @Neoteros's Italian Confederation (assuming the Knights are part of that). Of course I actually find it interesting that a small part of North America could have spoken Maltese if given enough time to stick.
     
  14. Pempelune c'est une chaussette

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    I remember thinking at the time that it would be fun to have the Knights run the only hospital of the island, and dismissing it as too silly an idea.
    Otherwise, yes I believe it was decided at the time that St-Barts stays a Swedish colony but joins the EAC, the alliance of small islands of the northern carribean.

    As for the Knights, well, IOTL they sold the colonies due to them being unprofitable and I see little reason for that to change ITTL. Furthermore, France stayed sovereign in those islands - while the Knights owned the lands, the islands remained technically French.
    What I could see is St-Barth deciding to honor in Knights in modern times, by giving them, say, honorary ownership of the island's sole hospital :p
     
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  15. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Here's a possible flag for Upper Louisiana.

    upper-louisiana.png
     
  16. Tyche Hand of Providence

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    Oh sweet! I was actually just making a Worlda Flag-map of the ASB states, I’ll post it tomorrow morning!
     
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  17. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    Wow! Here's the full set of flags as of now. Four states are still unflagged (Dakota, Chicasaw, Choctaw, and Cuba).

    ASB FLAGS latest.jpg
     
  18. Tyche Hand of Providence

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    [​IMG]
    Because of how borders have to take up pixel space, some of the designs get pretty crunched (New England), but you can clearly see some design connections! My favorite are the purple wampum designs of the Iroquoian decedent states.
     
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  19. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    In the same vein, here's an updated flag families chart.

    ASB FLAG FAMILIES flat.jpg
     
  20. False Dmitri Я хочу пельменей

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    This is a list of the Indian languages in the ASB that have been given a standard form.

    Standardization is considered important for an Indian language's vitality. Above all, it creates an agreed written form of the language, which allows for the production of literature and official documents. It also creates a basis for the language to be used in schools and thereby pass to future generations.

    Additionally, a standard language serves to draw solid lines around a fuzzy bundle of local dialects. This increases the size of a speaking community, giving the language more vitality, but it can also gradually erase those local dialects as people begin to speak more like the standard. This can be seen with the Muscogui language, whose standardization was published in 1904 and has therefore influenced many generations of speakers. Educators in both Muscoguia and Seminol wanted a single standard that would bridge the dialects spoken in each state. The effect has been for the two forms of the language to become more similar to each other, to the point where people in each state have started to lament the loss of local dialects among the younger generation. For the Anishinaabe language of the Great Lakes, standardized even earlier, this process is even further along, so that the historical Potawatomi, Ottawa, and Ojibwe languages are basically extinct today. (Some dialects that are further from the standard, like Nipissing and Laurentian Anishinaabe, remain relatively healthy.)

    Each language on the list is supported by a language academy that sets the standard and promotes the language. Some of these are modeled directly on European language academies and are sponsored directly by state governments. Others are more independent, but most depend on the sponsorship of local governments on some level. All of the languages also enjoy some use in education. The usual pattern is for basic literacy to be taught in the indigenous language, with increasing use of a European language over the course of the primary grades. In most states, secondary education is conducted entirely in a European language; only the specifically Indian states support native language education at the secondary level on a large scale.

    Here are the languages in alphabetical order, followed by the states where they are spoken and the location of the language academy. You can see that most of the academies are in state capitals, with the exception of the heavily colonized coastal area, where they tend to be in smaller, Indian communities.

    1 Abenaki (Canada, New Hampshire, Vermont) - Memfremagog, VM
    2 Apalachi (East Florida, West Florida) - Anhaica, FE
    3 Anishinaabe (Upper Country, Ohio, Huronia, Canada) - Detroit, PH
    4 Cherokee (Cherokee, Ohio, Watauga) - Echota, CK
    5 Chicasaw (Chicasaw, Upper Virginia) - Pontotoc, CS
    6 Choctaw (Choctaw, West Florida) - Kunsha, CT
    7 Dakota (Dakota, Assiniboia, Upper Country) - Wahpeton, DA
    8 Dhegiha (Arques, Upper Louisiana, Ohio, Dakota) - Champ-d'Espoir, AR
    9 Huron (Ohio, Upper Country, Huronia, Canada) - Detroit, PH
    10 Innu (Canada, Labrador) - Québec, CA
    11 Inuttitut (Labrador) - Rigoulette, LA
    12 Iroquois (Iroquoia, Huronia, Poutaxia, Allegheny, Ohio, Massachusetts Bay) - Onondaga, IR
    13 Lenape (Christiana, Allegheny, Ohio) - Upland, CR
    14 Mahican (New Netherland, Massachusetts Bay) - Beverwijk, NN
    15 Massachusett (Massachusetts Bay, Saybrook, the Vineyards) - Natick, MB
    16 Miami (Ohio, Upper Country) - Pekoui, OH
    17 Michif (Assiniboia) - Winnipeg, AS
    18 Micmaq (Acadian states, Newfoundland) - Le-Coude, AO
    19 Muscogui (Muscogui, Seminol, East Florida, West Florida) - Pensacola, FO
    20 Natchez (Lower Louisiana) - Natchez, BL
    21 Ninnimissinouk (Saybrook) - Mashmoquet, SB
    22 Nipmuck (Massachusetts Bay) - Manchaug, MB
    23 Shawnee (Ohio, Upper Country) - Pekoui, OH
    24 Timucua (East Florida) - San Agustín, FE

    Here's a reference map. Upland is Christiana's legislative capital, so it's counted as a capital city.

    lang-academies.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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