Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

I wonder if the "Long Island riffraff" stereotype exists in TTL. And with the economic position of New Amsterdam apparently just as strong if not stronger than in OTL, there must be a lot of cultural tropes in the regions radiating out from the center, which are widely known throughout the confederation. Mapping the greater New Amsterdam region will be a big and important task, I think, and so will figuring out who lives in what neighborhood.

This really fits well with @Turquoise Blue's idea of Long Island political parties in Saybrook and Lower Connecticut. The Long Island English are a distinct cultural melange, and it stands to reason that some of them would express that through their politics.

Edit - another element that shouldn't be ignored would be the Shinnecock and Montauk Indians. Colonial Saybrook had a large population of allied Indians from various nations. As time went on they most likely incorporated these into state society by following the Masdachusetts model of setting up autonomous townships. The southeast arm of Long Island then probably has two smallish towns recognized as Indian, one for each historic tribe. Because of the dynamics of the island, the people in both towns would be of very mixed ancestry.
 
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This alternate universe is very fascinating, is there any requirement of a state for being included in this timeline?
I mean, I've invented a colony of the Great Duchy of Tuscany in South America (based on historical facts, Thornton expedition) that can perfectly fit in this timeline, is it possible to include it?
I think it would be cool to see some Italians along other European people in America.

EDIT: updated the map, better coastline

Map:
8TMzVr7.jpg
 
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I wonder if the "Long Island riffraff" stereotype exists in TTL.

Perhaps - though in this world, the stereotype might be geographically limited to the poorer portions of the New Amsterdam Urban core - and maybe combined with some Jersey stereotypes? As for the Long Island English, I'd imagine they would at worst just be stereotyped as knock-off Dutch.

And with the economic position of New Amsterdam apparently just as strong if not stronger than in OTL, there must be a lot of cultural tropes in the regions radiating out from the center, which are widely known throughout the confederation.

The economic role that New Amsterdam plays in-universe is something I find especially intriguing. Personally, I would imagine that while Internationally New Amsterdam is something more along the lines of OTL São Paulo than OTL NYC in terms of economic influence, I would definitely imagine that New Amsterdam/New Netherland makes up an even greater chunk of the ASB national economy than OTL New York has of the US economy.

Mapping the greater New Amsterdam region will be a big and important task, I think, and so will figuring out who lives in what neighborhood.

So if we assume that the ASB had lower 19th and early 20th century immigration, and that the ASB has a 20th century population growth pattern more along the lines of OTL Mexico and Brazil, then one possibility that I find interesting is the large presence of "Internal" modern immigrants in late 20th/early 21st century New Amsterdam.

So while of course you would still have plenty of immigrants from outside the ASB, perhaps a plurality or even majority of "immigrants" to metro New Amsterdam are actually fellow ASB citizens - with cultural barriers like language differences preventing them from assimilating at the rate someone from any portion of the OTL US would if they moved to New York.

So maybe in neighborhood 1 you have Cherokee and Piedmonters from Watagua. In neighborhood 2, you have people from both Dominicas, In neighborhood 3, you have French and Annishinabee speakers from the Upper Country and so on and so forth. And because of those cultural barriers, said groups manage to keep their distinct cultural identity for at least a couple of generations if not longer.

This really fits well with @Turquoise Blue's idea of Long Island political parties in Saybrook and Lower Connecticut. The Long Island English are a distinct cultural melange, and it stands to reason that some of them would express that through their politics.

Yeah. I was actually excited to see that the possibility of Long Island statehood was already brought up in-universe.

And now I'm wondering if the Long Island English would be considered a Yankee substock?

Edit - another element that shouldn't be ignored would be the Shinnecock and Montauk Indians. Colonial Saybrook had a large population of allied Indians from various nations. As time went on they most likely incorporated these into state society by following the Masdachusetts model of setting up autonomous townships. The southeast arm of Long Island then probably has two smallish towns recognized as Indian, one for each historic tribe. Because of the dynamics of the island, the people in both towns would be of very mixed ancestry.

Thanks for this info! I've already updated the previous post to include this and other bits of information I didn't originally. Let me know if there's anything you think I should add! :)
 
With this world becoming more collaborative, we - I - am going to need to get more organized. Years ago, @Turquoise Blue created a Wiki page for the world, and my plan is to start at it this weekend. I want to write a post explaining just what the Pseudodemetrian Imperial Commonwealth is, how it formed, and how it works. A lot of that info lives on my Weebly or inside my head, but I think I've shared precious little of it here. The in-universe name also almost certainly needs to change. Contrived acronyms are one thing, but naming an empire after a famous impostor is quite another. But beyond that, the top priority is producing a full list of collaborators. Here's the best of my recollection, but it probably needs to be fixed:

  • @False Dmitri - Founder, ASB state histories and cultures
  • @Turquoise Blue -ASB politics and political history
  • @Upvoteanthology -ASB history and architecture, Lavaros (Mexico), California Union, Confederation of West Africa
  • @Venusian Si - Mesoamerican nations, ASB local histories and cultures
  • @Pempelune - Union of Antillean States
  • @Doctor President - San Diego and other Californian states
  • @Tsochar - ASB tech history, culture, and economics
  • @Tyche - Worlda map
  • @Falkanner - ASB demographics
  • @FrankCesco - Nuova Toscana
  • And it's not letting me tag him, but Lord Grattan designed Huronia's road sign, which then inspired its flag.
Who and what am I missing?
 
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A lot of that info lives on my Weebly or inside my head, but I think I've shared precious little of it here. The in-universe name also almost certainly needs to change. Contrived acronyms are one thing, but naming an empire after a famous impostor is quite another.
Panslavic Imperial Commonwealth?
 
The in-universe name also almost certainly needs to change. Contrived acronyms are one thing, but naming an empire after a famous impostor is quite another.

Admittedly, I can't think of any good P words but you could always call it the Global or Greater Eurasian Imperial Commonwealth - a bit generic/lacking that *wink wink* of Pseudodemetrian.

Or perhaps you could follow the "Dual Monarchy" example of Austria-Hungary, and have it historically be called the "Triple Monarchy or The Three Crowns" and when the Juan Dynasty is established, have the name revamped to the "Quadruple Monarchy/The Four Crowns".

But beyond that, the top priority is producing a full list of collaborators. Here's the best of my recollection, but it probably needs to be fixed:

Who and what am I missing?

That should be everyone so far.
 
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This alternate universe is very fascinating, is there any requirement of a state for being included in this timeline?
I mean, I've invented a colony of the Great Duchy of Tuscany in South America (based on historical facts, Thornton expedition) that can perfectly fit in this timeline, is it possible to include it?
I think it would be cool to see some Italians along other European people in America.

So about your beautiful map. Have you written a back story other than that the Thornton Expedition worked out? Or any descriptive writing? If not it's fine. The map is a great addition.

Now the only thing approaching a PoD of this setting is that things started to diverge from OTL around 1600 or so. Now clearly things got really different, really fast, based on some of what we know. So late-1500s divergences are probably acceptable if they're not too big. But Klein-Venedig, on the edge of the New Tuscany map, disintegrated in OTL a few decades before that. Could we say it's some kind ofn seventeenth-century revival of the German colony?
 
So about your beautiful map. Have you written a back story other than that the Thornton Expedition worked out? Or any descriptive writing? If not it's fine. The map is a great addition.

Now the only thing approaching a PoD of this setting is that things started to diverge from OTL around 1600 or so. Now clearly things got really different, really fast, based on some of what we know. So late-1500s divergences are probably acceptable if they're not too big. But Klein-Venedig, on the edge of the New Tuscany map, disintegrated in OTL a few decades before that. Could we say it's some kind ofn seventeenth-century revival of the German colony?
Thank you for liking my map, here is it the background history:

The expedition sailed from the port of Leghorn (Livorno) on 8 September 1608, Robert Thornton was in command of the galleon Santa Lucia Bonaventura, while the tart was headed by his brother Giles. At one point of the journey the two ships separated and Robert arrived at the end of June 1609 in north of the Rio's delta, beetween the Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Captain Thornton's galleon Santa Lucia Bonaventura, after making a stop in Trinidad, returned to Livorno on 12 July 1609, with much information and study material, including tropical parrots and 5-6 Native Americans, only one of the natives survived and he lived several years at the Court of the Medici, where he learned to speak the Tuscan dialect, telling of the riches and fertility of his native land, rich in gold and silver.
Thornton himself confirmed these stories and stated that the country was rich in rosewood, reeds of wild sugar, white pepper, balsam, cotton and many other types of goods that could have been a great possibility of trade for the Tuscans.
So the prosperity of the region convinced Ferdinando I, that sent an other expedition with settlers from Livorno and Lucca to colonize this region, in the 26 July 1609 15 August 1609, they founded the colony of Nuova Toscana. Later the Cosimo II, the successor of Ferdinando I renounced of his businesses with the Mediterranean area preferring the Caribbean area, making the Grand-Duchy one of the richest European countries, through strong trade links with Spain and Portugal.
Eventually Italy unified as a Federation of States in 1848 after the First Italian War of Independence, allied with Hungary during the Spring of the Nations, and menaged to restore Venice and its possessions in Dalmatia. So Italy remained neutral during the Great War and the World War Two, since it didn't have any irredentism claims. It eventually conquered Tunisia (1880), Eritrea (1882), Ethiopia (1898), Somalia (1892), Tientsin (1901) and Libya (1911). It became an Empire extended on 4 continents and had a incredible economic growth. The population of Italy proper reached the 50 Million people in 1911 and the 60 Million people in 1955. In 2018 the population was of 76 Million people.


Regarding the map, I can delete Klein-Venedig despite a colony of Germany in the Americans would be cool; also I noticed that the toponymy refer only to the first stages of the colony, I may change the names of some cities.

Edit: actually, if they returned to Livorno on 12 July 1609, they couldn't arrive in Guyana on the 26 July, they took 9 months to go there and 1 month to go back to Livorno, so the correct date should be like 15 August 1609.
 
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Admittedly, I can't think of any good P words but you could always call it the Global or Greater Eurasian Imperial Commonwealth - a bit generic/lacking that *wink wink* of Pseudodemetrian.

You definitely have a point. The imperial dynasty is really the one thing that all the commonwealth members have in common, so the name of the dynasty would be a reasonable name for it. And suppose that the dynasty descend from the first False Dmitri. Then imagine that at some point, when the centuries have removed any doubt about the family's place as rulers, they acknowledge his falseness and embrace Pseudodemetrian as their family name. That could account for the silliness and let us keep the wink-wink qualities.

So in the interest of getting shit sorted out, here is a basic rundown of what the PIC is, and where it came from.

The origins of the dynastic union that came before the Imperial Commonwealth lie in the Time of Troubles in Russia. When nobody could agree who should be Tsar, a young Polish aristocrat appeared claiming to be the son of Ivan the Terrible. He amassed enough support to become Tsar himself. Dmitri brought with him a coterie of Polish retainers, but he also made alliances with key boyars and married the daughter of one of them. Thus the blending of nations that marks the PIC began in False Dmitri's court, with its combination of Polish and Russian elements.

Political union began later. I'll have to work out the details, but Dmitri went back to Poland to be elected as its king. The szlachta saw the benefits of having a king who was also Tsar. The allied forces of Poland and Russia could then turn against their mutual enemy, Sweden. What ended up happening was a dynastic alliance in which Sweden's Princess Christina married one of Dmitri's sons. Again through skillful politicking, the son of this union was able to win enough support among the Swedish nobles to be accepted as king. By some point in the second half 17th century, Sweden, Poland and Russia had a common monarch. All the energy that the three countries had devoted to fighting each other could now be turned outward.

Now in order to make all this work, the successive Pseudodemetrian tsars really did need to adopt a policy of live and let live to their different realms, especially to the nobility. At the same time, military victories abroad would have to keep the nobility invested in the ongoing success of the dynasty. Magnates from all three realms benefited from the conquest of Siberia and forays into Turkish territory. Their mutual support allowed Poland to take over Transylvania as a vassal state, and Sweden to strengthen its Baltic territories. By the later eighteenth century the ruling class was thoroughly committed to the cause of Empire. They provided generations of soldiers and bureaucrats to keep it running.

But a lot of the nascent PIC's expansion happened without direct conquest. This was no more true than in the Far East. Russia supported the rebellion of the Manchu banners against the Qing, and the Tsar came forward as Manchuria's new emperor. But this takeover was carefully framed as the rise of a new Chinese dynasty, dubbed the Jian (堅), not as a Russian colonial action. And indeed, while Russians took control of much of Manchuria's economy in the nineteenth century, its government remained wholly separate. The takeover of Korea via invasion and coup proceeded in much the same way, the kingdom declared a dominion of the Jian. The island of Ezochi (Hokkaido) was occupied and ruled as a colony, but responsibility for it passed from Russia to Korea in the twentieth century, and it became Jian territory. In this later period the Pseudodemetrians were not above using old dynastic tactics. Hawaii was brought into the empire first by flattering the king with a royal marriage, then forcing him to abdicate in favor of the tsar. A few of the western territories, most notably Pfalz-Zweibruecken, had been acquired in a remarkably similar fashion, with a cadet branch of the family ceding power to the tsar.

Social ties had helped bind together the older realms of the empire, and the same became true in the new realms of the Pacific Rim. The movement of peoples brought a common character to territories from China, to the Russian Far East, to Alaska and Oregon and the Russian-influenced parts of California, both the small official colony and states further inland. In all these places, people from East Asia lived side by side with Russian officials and emigrees, people from allied European states, and Russian minorities, especially Germans and Jews. Joining them were migrants from further east: Americans, especially English speakers but also some French. From their settlements in Oregon, they moved into Alaska and crossed the Pacific to the Asian realms. Sakhalin and the Maritime Province of eastern Manchuria have large English-speaking communities today. The Americans and Westerners helped to ensure that these Pacific realms did not slide into colonial status, but maintained robust, independent governments.

The Atlantic colonies, much smaller and less powerful, evolved rather differently. All of them survived only by joining themselves to larger federations in which the tsar and the European governments could play only a very limited role. Christiana became part of the ASB, Tobago and St. Barts members of the UAS, and Gambia a state of the CWA. (@Upvoteanthology - I think? Is Gambia a member?)

The sprawling empire evolved into the Imperial Commonwealth during the middle fifty years of the twentieth century. St. Petersburg, long the royal seat due to its position between the three realms, became the home of the United Parliament (or Soyedinyonnaya Duma). The parliament drew representatives from more and more of the countries of the empire as representation was extended to them. The PIC in its modern form was declared in the 1980s, when the formal principle of equality among the members was finally affirmed.

Extreme points of the PIC

The extreme geographic points in the Imperial Commonwealth give an idea of its vast spread.

6485215.jpg

Northernmost point: Augustus Island, Polar Island Territories (our Rudolf Island, Franz Josef Land). The island is an inhospitable frozen rock that has served as the base for many great expeditions to the Pole. Located 81° 46' north of the Equator, it is one of the northernmost pieces of land on earth.

3321896.jpg

Southernmost point: Sharks Island, Polynesian Sporades, Kingdom of Hawaii (our Flint Island, Kiribati). The ten atolls of the Polynesian Sporades are the only territory of the PIC to reach south of the equator. A couple of islands in the chain have been sold or annexed to other powers, but most of it was part of the Russian colony that today is the Kingdom of Hawaii. Sharks Island is an uninhabited atoll with few resources, in the words of a mid-20th century report, "of no value to anyone whatsoever." Attempts to use it for guano mining and coconut planting failed because of its extreme isolation. It is at 11° 25' south latitude.

9875548.jpg

Westernmost point (by convention, the Atlantic is considered west and the Pacific east): Millington, Christiana (in our Maryland) - The town is at the source of the Chester River, which served as a point to mark the western vertex of the border between Maryland and Christiana. It is a quiet, pleasant little place, very different from the unforgiving wildernesses that make up the rest of this list. The culture is almost 100% English speaking and closely tied to Maryland. A shady park with messages of goodwill in many languages marks the western limit of the Tsar's domains. It is located at 75° 50' west of Greenwich.

2307608.jpg

Easternmost point: Crowsnest Pass, Oregon (on the border of our Alberta and British Columbia). A high pass through the mountains that in the past marked a boundary between Kutenai and Blackfoot territory, and today forms the border between Oregon and Rupertsland. English- and French-speaking traders, miners, and railroaders came through the pass in the late 19th century and made it an important crossing point through the Rockies and an important link between the high prairies and the Pacific. It became the eastern limit of Oregon, a vast territory that was a protectorate of the Russian Tsar (but never a colony). It is 144° 41' west of Greenwich.

9732014.jpg

Highest point: Somoni Peak, Pamirs, Bactria (in our Tajikistan). This remote peak was not identified as the highest point in the empire until the 20th century. A team of Russian, Swedish, and Bactrian mountaineers scaled it soon after that. It is 7,495 meters above sea level.

1321441.jpg

Lowest point: Karagiye Trench (the Black Jaw), Land of Ashgabat, Turkestan (in our Kazakhstan). The Black Jaw is a harsh, craggy cut in the earth near the edge of the Caspian Sea. At 132 meters below sea level, it is lowest dry point in the large, low-lying Caspian basin.
 
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@Tsochar - I finally took the time to really read and digest the tv history. It was interesting to see the ways that it paralleled and also cut against trends in OTL. The alternative forms of the "Leatherstocking" and "rural" genres is especially cool to read. Has the pendulum swung back at all on those - that is, do we see any examples of modern shows that revive or deconstruct the genre? I'm imagining things like attempts to develop the native perspective more fully. Chicagou and New Amsterdam have ample access to the Amishinaabe and Iroquois language communities, respectively, and I could imagine some re-workings of the traditional Leatherstocking that makes use of that.

It's also fascinating that English seems to be a bit on the outside of ASB entertainment media. I'm not sure what the implications of that are, but it's really interesting. I'm imagining that English is rather more influential in news media and possibly "high culture" type media, with New England dominating the field. Boston and Newport, RI, and maybe Hartford, would be the key centers there. But for entertainment, English speakers rely on material produced for Dutch and French speaking audiences.

My impression is that both tv and film in TTL are a bit more provincial and a bit less developed, from our point of view. I don't see the opportunity for any studio or genre to go Full Hollywood. And then the ideal of big-budget Hollywood productions would not be there for other places to emulate... the entire media landscape seems rather more multipolar and not quite as "big". That is my impression from reading your piece, but is that accurate?
 
Regarding the map, I can delete Klein-Venedig despite a colony of Germany in the Americans would be cool; also I noticed that the toponymy refer only to the first stages of the colony, I may change the names of some cities.

I wouldn't think that to be necessary. The situation in Germany is still so little-known, but it is certainly plausible that another power could revive the old Welser colony. ... Austria is even a possibility, given the relationship between Spain, Austria, and the Welser family.
 
@Tsochar - I finally took the time to really read and digest the tv history. It was interesting to see the ways that it paralleled and also cut against trends in OTL. The alternative forms of the "Leatherstocking" and "rural" genres is especially cool to read. Has the pendulum swung back at all on those - that is, do we see any examples of modern shows that revive or deconstruct the genre? I'm imagining things like attempts to develop the native perspective more fully. Chicagou and New Amsterdam have ample access to the Amishinaabe and Iroquois language communities, respectively, and I could imagine some re-workings of the traditional Leatherstocking that makes use of that.

It's also fascinating that English seems to be a bit on the outside of ASB entertainment media. I'm not sure what the implications of that are, but it's really interesting. I'm imagining that English is rather more influential in news media and possibly "high culture" type media, with New England dominating the field. Boston and Newport, RI, and maybe Hartford, would be the key centers there. But for entertainment, English speakers rely on material produced for Dutch and French speaking audiences.

My impression is that both tv and film in TTL are a bit more provincial and a bit less developed, from our point of view. I don't see the opportunity for any studio or genre to go Full Hollywood. And then the ideal of big-budget Hollywood productions would not be there for other places to emulate... the entire media landscape seems rather more multipolar and not quite as "big". That is my impression from reading your piece, but is that accurate?

Yes, absolutely! I got the idea for the history by thinking, what if shows were produced in the state they took place in? I looked up the settings of various well-known tv shows through the decades and tried to trace a geographic history, skipping over shows taking place in California and the like. I found that New York dominated, but waned through the years, and Chicago was a distant but respectable second. Eventually I was able to re-contextualize otl trends into the ASB.

A side note, the rural boom was absolutely a real thing, for example Green Acres, Andy Griffith, the Beverley hillbillies and so on, and so was the rural purge in 1970-71. I figured that this trend would be what brings the poorer states into tv production. In OTL, most broadcast stations had their own programming that was broadcast for local audiences, and occasionally the larger networks picked up the better ones for national syndication. In the ASB, I figure there was never a "big three" to gobble up the smaller stations, so provincial tv never really died out, even if most tv shows are broadcast nationally by present-day. Although, of course, satellite broadcasts and internet tv would likely kill off some of the smaller production companies starting in the early '00s. It may be that, while otl is experiencing a "golden age" of well-written shows on new platforms, the ASB is having a "dark age" with smaller studios being acquired and gutted by powerful new media companies, causing diversity and show quality to suffer and leading to a massive surge in unexpected cancellations.

Regarding English, I did skip over it a little unintentionally. In terms of how many shows are produced in what language, English is probably second, but it's decentralized with the centers being Boston, Two Forts, and Charlotte (or whatever the major urban center in Carolina is), with New Amsterdam and Chicago also producing English-language programming. Carolina has found a domestic niche in producing shows for the black demographic that are usually less successful nationally. Dutch shows are almost all produced in New Amsterdam, but shows in every language are produced there, and the Dutch ones often get more limited release than French and English ones. The role of language by modern day overall is a bit diminished, as almost all shows have subs and dubs easily available.
 
Thank you for liking my map, here is it the background history:

The expedition sailed from the port of Leghorn (Livorno) on 8 September 1608, Robert Thornton was in command of the galleon Santa Lucia Bonaventura, while the tart was headed by his brother Giles. At one point of the journey the two ships separated and Robert arrived at the end of June 1609 in north of the Rio's delta, beetween the Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Captain Thornton's galleon Santa Lucia Bonaventura, after making a stop in Trinidad, returned to Livorno on 12 July 1609, with much information and study material, including tropical parrots and 5-6 Native Americans, only one of the natives survived and he lived several years at the Court of the Medici, where he learned to speak the Tuscan dialect, telling of the riches and fertility of his native land, rich in gold and silver.
Thornton himself confirmed these stories and stated that the country was rich in rosewood, reeds of wild sugar, white pepper, balsam, cotton and many other types of goods that could have been a great possibility of trade for the Tuscans.
So the prosperity of the region convinced Ferdinando I, that sent an other expedition with settlers from Livorno and Lucca to colonize this region, in the 26 July 1609 15 August 1609, they founded the colony of Nuova Toscana. Later the Cosimo II, the successor of Ferdinando I renounced of his businesses with the Mediterranean area preferring the Caribbean area, making the Grand-Duchy one of the richest European countries, through strong trade links with Spain and Portugal.
Eventually Italy unified as a Federation of States in 1848 after the First Italian War of Independence, allied with Hungary during the Spring of the Nations, and menaged to restore Venice and its possessions in Dalmatia. So Italy remained neutral during the Great War and the World War Two, since it didn't have any irredentism claims. It eventually conquered Tunisia (1880), Eritrea (1882), Ethiopia (1898), Somalia (1892), Tientsin (1901) and Libya (1911). It became an Empire extended on 4 continents and had a incredible economic growth. The population of Italy proper reached the 50 Million people in 1911 and the 60 Million people in 1955. In 2018 the population was of 76 Million people.


Regarding the map, I can delete Klein-Venedig despite a colony of Germany in the Americans would be cool; also I noticed that the toponymy refer only to the first stages of the colony, I may change the names of some cities.

Edit: actually, if they returned to Livorno on 12 July 1609, they couldn't arrive in Guyana on the 26 July, they took 9 months to go there and 1 month to go back to Livorno, so the correct date should be like 15 August 1609.

Not long ago, I wondered about the possibility of a federal Italy on this very thread, actually.

Here's some background on the idea I had:

After the Congress of Vienna, the Republic of Genoa is restored to its pre-revolutionary borders as a Duchy aligned to the Austrian Empire, instead of being annexed by the Kingdom of Sardinia; the Duchy of Genoa is also granted the island of Corsica. The POD? Talleyrand dying in a very suspicious incident, and the Austrian Empire taking advantage of this. As a result, the Kingdom of Sardinia is a much weaker entity, and republicanism - both federal, as advocated by Carlo Cattaneo, and unitary, as advocated by Giuseppe Mazzini - becomes a much more appealing option for the peninsula's nationalists.

Once the 1848 revolutions happen, the leading role isn't taken by the Kingdom of Sardinia, but by the Confederacy of Northern Italy - an alliance between the restored Republic of Genoa led by Mazzini and the former Lombardy-Venetia, now split between the Republic of Saint Mark led by Manin (as in OTL) and the Golden Ambrosian Republic led by Cattaneo. The region of Romagna, a historically rebellious component of the Papal States, joins the Confederation just as Giuseppe Garibaldi lands there, followed by quite a few veterans of his wars in South America, as the United Provinces of Romagna.

Leading the peninsula's republican troops against all odds, Garibaldi is fatally wounded during the battle for Trento, that the Confederate troops will win, and dies soon afterwards. His wife, Anita, stubbornly refuses to leave the command of Garibaldi's troops to someone other than herself, openly challenging and opposing orders from above; Garibaldi's army swells in size, due to a combination of sympathy for Garibaldi and Anita's rather liberal outlook on accepting willing volunteers from all walks of life - in fact, enough girls and women would join Anita's army that a whole regiment - the now legendary Bianca Maria Visconti Brigade - would be created for them.

The Hungarian and Italian forces are able to meet on the outskirts of Laibach, defeating the Austrian forces just as the Habsburg navy experiences a mass mutiny led by the many Venetian members of it, who defect to the Republic of Saint Mark.

The Confederacy of Northern Italy becomes the Confederacy and Empire of Italy when Carlo Cattaneo - who was never really an enemy of the Habsburg crown, since even in OTL he would've been content with greater autonomy for Lombardy inside the Austrian Empire - proposes to the monarchical heads of state of the peninsula to join the new polity, that would have a very weak central government. They accept, even Pius IX, who never quite stopped having liberal tendencies in this ATL.

The constitution of the new country is heavily modeled after that of the Old Swiss Confederacy, with a unicameral Senate made up of ten representatives for each member country, elected or appointed according to their countries' own laws on the subject, an elected Prime Minister and an elected Emperor - the first of them being Leopold II of Tuscany, as Leopold I of Italy.

As of ATL 2018, the member states are:

Bishopric of Trent - OTL Trentino, minus the Ladin-speaking areas - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Duchy of Massa and Carrara - Territory as in OTL - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Duchy of Modena and Reggio - OTL territory, plus Bologna - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Duchy of Parma and Piacenza - Territory as in OTL - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Free City of Trieste - OTL Imperial Free City of Trieste - Unitary presidential republic
Duchy of Savoy - OTL mainland of Piedmont-Sardinia minus Liguria, Novara and VCO - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [*]
Golden Ambrosian Republic - OTL Austrian Lombardy plus Novara, VCO and Italian-speaking Switzerland - Parliamentary federal republic [**]
Grand Duchy of Tuscany - OTL territory, minus some border regions that chose to join Romagna, Elba, Massa and Carrara - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Kingdom of Naples - OTL mainland of the Two Sicilies - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [***]
Kingdom of Sardinia - OTL Sardinia - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [*]
Kingdom of Sicily - OTL Sicily - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [***]
Papal States - OTL Papal States minus Romagna - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Principality of Elba - OTL Elba and Tuscan Archipelago - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Principality of Seborga - OTL Seborga - Elective constitutional monarchy
Republic of Corsica - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Cospaia - Territory as in OTL - Direct democracy
Republic of Friuli - More or less OTL Friuli, minus some border areas with Slovenia and Trieste - Unitary parliamentary republic
Republic of Ladinia - OTL Ladin-speaking comuni of Trentino-Alto Adige and Veneto - Direct democracy
Republic of Noli - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Genoa - OTL territory, minus Corsica and Seborga - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Saint Mark - OTL Austrian Veneto minus Friuli and the Ladin-speaking areas, plus coastal Dalmatia and Istria - Parliamentary federal republic
Republic of San Marino - Territory as in OTL - Unitary parliamentary directorial republic
Republic of Senarica - Territory as in OTL - Direct democracy
United Provinces of Romagna - Papal Romagna minus Bologna, plus some border regions with Tuscany - Parliamentary federal directorial republic

[*] Shared monarch
[**] Italian-speaking Switzerland joined during the Sonderbund War
[***] Shared monarch

Members of the League of Peoples (an Italian version of the Commonwealth of Nations):

Empire of Ethiopia - OTL Ethiopia minus the Ogaden and border regions with Eritrea - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Free City of Tientsin - OTL Tientsin concession - Unitary presidential republic
Principality of Cyrenaica - OTL Cyrenaica region - Absolute monarchy
Republic of Eritrea - OTL Eritrea while in Italian East Africa - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Fezzan - OTL Fezzan region - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of New Guinea - Northwestern New Guinea - Federal parliamentary republic [****]
Republic of New Tuscany - That one map - Unitary parliamentary republic
Republic of Sabah - OTL Sabah - Unitary parliamentary republic [****]
Republic of Somalia - OTL Greater Somalia - Federal parliamentary republic
Republic of Tripolitania - OTL Tripolitania region - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Tunisia - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic

[****] It could've happened.
 
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Gian

Banned
I propose a similar ASB-ish setup for France as well (with perhaps surviving Protestants in the south)

What does everyone think?
 
I propose a similar ASB-ish setup for France as well (with perhaps surviving Protestants in the south)

What does everyone think?

So the only known facts about French history relate to the Napoleonic era. They are maybe overly convergent, but by now they're pretty ingrained in ASB history.Here are some relevant quotes from old posts (edited so they fit together):

Napoleon in this timeline certainly fought his way around Europe, but his ambitions there were slightly less universal. Either he died early, or else he and his advisers had a healthier respect for their armies' limits. At any rate, France in this era refrained from attacking Russia, relinquished most of its conquests in Europe, and focused its expansionist impulse overseas. Retaking Dominica and Louisiana met with mixed success - both campaigns ended in negotiated settlements rather than outright reconquests - while France's conquest of Patagonia was famous for its quixotic gallantry.

In 1810, Napoleon sent members of his family to govern his conquests. He sent his brother Jerome to Canada as "King of New France". He was to rule all the Boreoamerican colonies as a vassal kingdom of the French Empire. Acadia alone among the smaller colonies received extra attention: another Bonaparte brother, Lucien, to rule as Prince.

This era came to an end in 1833. The death of Napoleon II in France left a succession crisis that ended with the rise of the Second Republic. The young emperor was childless but not heirless and had taken pains to set up an orderly succession; nevertheless, republican forces saw their opportunity. The revolution was bloody but short.

The component states of New France, animated by the revolutionary spirit, at last cast off colonial rule permanently. Acadia was the only colony where the new republic was able to assert its control. Lucien departed into exile in Italy, but some of his family chose to stay in America, settling in the Anglophone states of Pennsylvania and Maryland. After twenty years as a self-governing Principality, Acadia returned to the status of a colony.

With the fall of the French Empire, Canada and its dependencies joined the growing Congress of the Nations.

So that history is pretty key to the histories of every French-speaking state of the ASB, and it's also a big part of how the French states came to join the others in confederation. So as long as a federated France takes all that into account, it ought to be able to work.
 
Not long ago, I wondered about the possibility of a federal Italy on this very thread, actually.

Here's some background on the idea I had;

After the Congress of Vienna, the Republic of Genoa is restored to its pre-revolutionary borders as a Duchy aligned to the Austrian Empire, instead of being annexed by the Kingdom of Sardinia; the Duchy of Genoa is also granted the island of Corsica. The POD? Talleyrand dying in a very suspicious incident, and the Austrian Empire taking advantage of this. As a result, the Kingdom of Sardinia is a much weaker entity, and republicanism - both federal, as advocated by Carlo Cattaneo, and unitary, as advocated by Giuseppe Mazzini - becomes a much more appealing option for the peninsula's nationalists.

Once the 1848 revolutions happen, the leading role isn't taken by the Kingdom of Sardinia, but by the Confederacy of Northern Italy - an alliance between the restored Republic of Genoa led by Mazzini and the former Lombardy-Venetia, now split between the Republic of Saint Mark led by Manin (as in OTL) and the Golden Ambrosian Republic led by Cattaneo. The region of Romagna, a historically rebellious component of the Papal States, joins the Confederation just as Giuseppe Garibaldi lands there, followed by quite a few veterans of his wars in South America, as the United Provinces of Romagna.

Leading the peninsula's republican troops against all odds, Garibaldi is fatally wounded during the battle for Trento, that the Confederate troops will win, and dies soon afterwards. His wife, Anita, stubbornly refuses to leave the command of Garibaldi's troops to someone other than herself, openly challenging and opposing orders from above; Garibaldi's army swells in size, due to a combination of sympathy for Garibaldi and Anita's rather liberal outlook on accepting willing volunteers from all walks of life - in fact, enough girls and women would join Anita's army that a whole regiment - the now legendary Bianca Maria Visconti Brigade - would be created for them.

The Hungarian and Italian forces are able to meet on the outskirts of Laibach, defeating the Austrian forces just as the Habsburg navy experiences a mass mutiny led by the many Venetian members of it, who defect to the Republic of Saint Mark.

The Confederacy of Northern Italy becomes the Confederacy and Empire of Italy when Carlo Cattaneo - who was never really an enemy of the Habsburg crown, since even in OTL he would've been content with greater autonomy for Lombardy inside the Austrian Empire - proposes to the monarchical heads of state of the peninsula to join the new polity, that would have a very weak central government. They accept, even Pius IX, who never quite stopped having liberal tendencies in this ATL.

The constitution of the new country is heavily modeled after that of the Old Swiss Confederacy, with a unicameral Senate made up of ten representatives for each member country, elected or appointed according to their countries' own laws on the subject, an elected Prime Minister and an elected Emperor - the first of them being Leopold II of Tuscany, as Leopold I of Italy.

As of ATL 2018, the member states are:

Duchy of Massa and Carrara - Territory as in OTL - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Duchy of Modena and Reggio - OTL territory, plus Bologna - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Duchy of Parma and Piacenza - Territory as in OTL - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Free City of Trieste - OTL Imperial Free City of Trieste - Unitary presidential republic
Duchy of Savoy - OTL mainland of Piedmont-Sardinia minus Liguria, Novara and VCO - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [*]
Golden Ambrosian Republic - OTL Austrian Lombardy plus Novara, VCO and Italian-speaking Switzerland - Parliamentary federal republic [**]
Grand Duchy of Tuscany - OTL territory, minus some border regions that chose to join Romagna, Elba, Massa and Carrara - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Kingdom of Naples - OTL mainland of the Two Sicilies - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [***]
Kingdom of Sardinia - OTL Sardinia - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [*]
Kingdom of Sicily - OTL Sicily - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy [***]
Papal States - OTL Papal States minus Romagna - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Principality of Elba - OTL Elba and Tuscan Archipelago - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Principality of Seborga - OTL Seborga - Elective constitutional monarchy
Republic of Corsica - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Cospaia - Territory as in OTL - Direct democracy
Republic of Friuli - More or less OTL Friuli, minus some border areas with Slovenia and Trieste - Unitary parliamentary republic
Republic of Ladinia - OTL Ladin-speaking comuni of Trentino-Alto Adige and Veneto - Direct democracy
Republic of Noli - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Genoa - OTL territory, minus Corsica and Seborga - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Saint Mark - OTL Austrian Veneto minus Friuli and the Ladin-speaking areas, plus coastal Dalmatia and Istria - Parliamentary federal republic
Republic of San Marino - Territory as in OTL - Unitary parliamentary directorial republic
Republic of Senarica - Territory as in OTL - Direct democracy
Republic of Trento - OTL Trentino, minus the Ladin-speaking areas - Unitary presidential republic
United Provinces of Romagna - Papal Romagna minus Bologna, plus some border regions with Tuscany - Parliamentary federal directorial republic

[*] Shared monarch
[**] Italian-speaking Switzerland joined during the Sonderbund War
[***] Shared monarch

Members of the League of Peoples (an Italian version of the Commonwealth of Nations):

Empire of Ethiopia - OTL Ethiopia minus the Ogaden and border regions with Eritrea - Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Free City of Tientsin - OTL Tientsin concession - Unitary presidential republic
Principality of Cyrenaica - OTL Cyrenaica region - Absolute monarchy
Republic of Eritrea - OTL Eritrea while in Italian East Africa - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Fezzan - OTL Fezzan region - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of New Guinea - Northwestern New Guinea - Federal parliamentary republic [****]
Republic of New Tuscany - That one map - Unitary parliamentary republic
Republic of Sabah - OTL Sabah - Unitary parliamentary republic [****]
Republic of Somalia - OTL Greater Somalia - Federal parliamentary republic
Republic of Tripolitania - OTL Tripolitania region - Unitary presidential republic
Republic of Tunisia - Territory as in OTL - Unitary presidential republic

[****] It could've happened.
Great idea! What kind of links are there between Italy and the former colonies in the Lega dei Popoli?
I've also made a map of the Italian Federation using the M-BAM; I've only added the Republic of Ragusa in the Federation and the South Tyrol southern part (including Bolzano) to Trento, since that panhandle is dangerous in an eventual war with Austria, so it covers the exact territory of the Alto Adige departement of the Cisalpine Republic
Italian Federation 3.png
 
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Great idea! What kind of links are there between Italy and the former colonies in the Lega dei Popoli?
I've also made a map of the Italian Federation using the M-BAM; I've only added the Republic of Ragusa in the Federation and the South Tyrol southern part (including Bolzano) to Trento, since that panhandle is dangerous in an eventual war with Austria, so it covers the exact territory of the Alto Adige departement of the Cisalpine Republic
View attachment 366575

You know, since you added Ragusa I think Monaco might join as well, with a weaker French state - Monegasque is after all a Ligurian dialect. Malta on the other hand became a British possession after the Congress of Vienna as in OTL, but a much stronger Italy that never experienced Fascism means that the country never stopped having very pronounced Italophile tendencies and, in fact, Malta leaving the Commonwealth of Nations to join the League of Peoples is not a remote possibility, and there is a small movement advocating for actual membership in the Confederacy and Empire, too.

Why not make Tavolara a member state, too? :p

The League of Peoples was established shortly after the establishment of the Commonwealth of Nations, so it's very similar to it, but certain countries - especially Eritrea and Tunisia - have even closer ties to Italy, similar to those between the states of the European Union; Christian Eritreans in particular are as well integrated in the Italian state as historical minorities such as the Arbëreshë and the Jews. Racism is still a thing, of course, but it tends to be much more similar to that in OTL Great Britain than that in OTL Italy.

By the way, I turned the Republic of Trent into a Bishopric, as it used to be - in order not to leave the Papal States as the only theocracy in the union.

And I think Lombardy should have the Lomellina instead of Piedmont, if Novara jumped ship it makes sense that Vigevano would do it too.

PS: this Italy is not an utopia: owing to the very decentralized structure of the country, some member states are very conservative, even by the standards of OTL Italy; and when I say "conservative" I mean "abortion and divorce are illegal, and they granted women the right to vote in the 1990s". On the other hand, the Northwest might as well be Scandinavia; a confederal Italy would mean that the OTL regional differences would be much more pronounced, even though the country would be more prosperous and stable as a whole.

Also, association football would be far less popular, due to less British influence and closer ties to Central Europe via Hungary: the most popular pastime in the country might still be pallone col bracciale - in fact, a modern version of the sport similar to the international game might become the most popular sport in Latin America, Latin Europe and the League of Peoples, but it wouldn't achieve the same level of popularity association football has in OTL.

Organized crime would still exist as well, it's just be different - rather than a handful of Southern organizations being massively influential, said syndicates would be much weaker, but Northern syndicates such as the Ligera would still be there, not having been replaced by their Southern counterparts.

Senarica%2C_Crognaleto%2C_TE.jpg


The Republic of Senarica is, with only 85 inhabitants, one of the smallest federal subjects in the world, and one of the wealthiest as well, owing to its status as a duty-free and tax haven.
 
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@Neoteros - 1815 is a decent enough time for Genoa to be restored, but could you move the acquisition of Corsica forward to 1832 or slightly after? That's the death of the reigning emperor Napoleon II and the start of the Second Republic, and it's a good time for France's rivals to take advantage.

I've got nothing much to comment on the Italy situation except to say I like it, especially the microstates.

Here's a sequel to the "Divide Ohio" map.
divide the asb jpg.jpg
 

Gian

Banned
OK so if France is out then, maybe I can do a different Bohemia. Basically something similar to the Swiss Confederation based on this:
WmN9eoV.png
 
@Neoteros - 1815 is a decent enough time for Genoa to be restored, but could you move the acquisition of Corsica forward to 1832 or slightly after? That's the death of the reigning emperor Napoleon II and the start of the Second Republic, and it's a good time for France's rivals to take advantage.

I've got nothing much to comment on the Italy situation except to say I like it, especially the microstates.

Here's a sequel to the "Divide Ohio" map.
View attachment 366610

Sure, I can do that. And it wouldn't be Italy without at least a couple microstates - hell, even in OTL two of them survived. :p

pict001494862_7_1238754238.jpg


The death of Chinese-Italian IT engineer Mario Tchou is butterflied away; as a result, Olivetti maintains its leading role in the computer industry, and it's the Ivrea-based business that produces the Videotel peripherals; Italy becomes, alongside France - home of the Minitel project - a pioneer country in online services aimed at the civilian populace, and the Piedmontese are soon stereotyped as unrepentant internet addicts on both sides of the Alps.

 
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