Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

Thanks! The QBAM makes that easy. Here it is, with both layers visible and blown up for easy viewing.

Neat! Thanks for posting.

I made sure to draw the border so that Atlanta is just barely part of Carolina, though looking back I'm not sure why. Atlanta was founded in OTL as a rail hub... I suppose it could have been a late border adjustment that brought Atlanta into Carolina. Cherokee was more or less a Carolian dependency during that era, and no doubt Carolina took advantage of that relationship once or twice to pressure the Cherokee into giving up bits of land.

Interesting. Looks like more of Merto Atlanta is in Carolina than I thought (even though Cherokee has the major North/Northwestern Suburbs).

And yeah, whatever your initial reasons for the border, imo it still actually works out well. Admittedly, I kind of assumed that Atlanta would be a backwater since it was relatively isolated from the rest of Carolina, but if it still has a history as a rail hub - to the point that Carolina bullies Cherokee into giving it some more land - then perhaps it still ends of being a major regional economic center (being the center of Carolina-Cherokee-Muscogia trade could certainly prove profitably), though if I were to guess, it probably has an economy more along the lines of OTL Charlotte NC than OTL Atlanta.

But at any rate, a potentially English/Cherokee/Muskogee trilingual is pretty cool. :)
 
@Venusian Si , it's definitely the result of minimal research on my part. Trying to remember my thinking, it more or less was: with the Albemarle settlements being annexed early on by Virginia, Carolina had less impetus to split north and south. Big Carolina meant that however the colonization of the Savannah River proceeded, it did so under the authority of Carolina rather than as a separate colony. The choicest pieces of Georgia then became part of Carolina in subsequent years, which in my mind included Atlanta. I know I did not realize just how late Atlanta developed. If there is anything particularly attractive about its location or site, or was the spot chosen more or less at random?

Linguistically, those border regions of Cherokee and Muscogia are rather Anglicized, but yes, it's definitely going to be an interesting contact point regardless.
 
@Venusian Si , it's definitely the result of minimal research on my part. Trying to remember my thinking, it more or less was: with the Albemarle settlements being annexed early on by Virginia, Carolina had less impetus to split north and south. Big Carolina meant that however the colonization of the Savannah River proceeded, it did so under the authority of Carolina rather than as a separate colony. The choicest pieces of Georgia then became part of Carolina in subsequent years,.

That sounds reasonable.

which in my mind included Atlanta. I know I did not realize just how late Atlanta developed. If there is anything particularly attractive about its location or site, or was the spot chosen more or less at random?
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From the looks of it, the choice of Atlanta does seem random. Besides the existence of the Chattahoochee River, I don't see any reason why the Atlanta equivalent wouldn't just as likely exist 10-20 to the East of it's OTL location. And of course if Carolina had poor trade relationships with the "Midwest" ASB states, then Atlanta would really have no reason to exist at all ITTL.

Of course, what is neat about this area is the fact that Atlanta is not only in the area where the historic borders between the Cherokee and Muscogee blurred but it also just so happens to be a great place for farmland. So in the context of the ASB, I could see Carolina playing the Cherokee and Muscogee nations against each other in order to secure some extra pristine farmland, and then, depending on how Carolina's relationship with the more Northern ASB states develops, you could potentially see the Carolinian government start developing ASB Atlanta as a transport hub a couple of decades behind schedule.

With that said, what is the Muscogia-Carolina border based on?

Linguistically, those border regions of Cherokee and Muscogia are rather Anglicized, but yes, it's definitely going to be an interesting contact point regardless.

Indeed.
 
An update to the ASB's space program, this time covering 1957-1971.

Part 1

Although there was coordination and cooperation between the various organizations, they were still very much independent, especially in the early days. CSRO was technically a single organization, but it had little legal authority over its constituent sub-organizations; as such, the early days of CSRO had several individual states using confederal resources to develop their own space programs.
Sounding rockets, that is, suborbital rockets that carry scientific equipment, had been launched by the hundred by many nations since the development of rocketry. The earliest and most-produced sounding rocket design was the Bernache du Canada, or Canada Goose, produced by Motespace in 1957. Other designs included the Pauline, developed by the New Netherlands Rocket Company, the Carolinian Tsul'kalu, and the short-lived Cuban C-series, which was discontinued in 1968. One important launch site for sounding rockets is Okkak Rocket Range in northern Labrador, which was founded in 1962 by the Canadian Research Board for the purpose of researching the Aurora Borealis.
The largest and most advanced space agency within CSRO during this period was the Detroit-based Upper Country Space Program, which worked closely with Motespace and CSRO headquarters in Chicagou. UCSP favored Manitoulin Island for its test rocket launches, as malfunctioning rockets could crash into the surrounding Lake Huron without loss of life. Close behind UCSP was the Carolina Center for Space Study, headquartered in Charlotte, which used a launch center in Savannah. New Netherland funded its own program in cooperation with several New England organizations, but ultimately deemed it too expensive and fully merged it with CSRO in 1971.
Cuba, East Dominica, West Dominica, East Florida, and Seminol pooled their resources to make their own Caribbean Space program, but eventually abandoned rocket research in favor of radio astronomy. They built the 290-meter Guamá Radio Observatory, the largest in the world at the time, in 1973, and the Caribbean Space Program was renamed El Centro Confederal de Astronomía in 1976.
True orbital spaceflight was the first major test of the new CSRO. The first orbit-capable rocket project in the ASB was started by the Boreoamerican Rocket Research Institute in 1963, but BRRI and the UCSP came to realize that the Manitoulin site was too small, too remote, and too far north to be suitable for orbital spaceflight. They partnered with the Carolina Center for Space Study to use the Tybee Launch Site near Savannah. The ASB's first satellite, P-1, nicknamed Peanut after a popular radio serial character, was launched in 1967.
While all this was going on, CSRO was undergoing a change. Recognizing that the various parts of CSRO were not unified and still occasionally worked at cross-purposes, the heads of all the various organizations that were associated with CSRO met in Virginia Beach in 1965 to lay out a plan for the future of the ASB's space program. To this end, they proposed a complete reorganization of CSRO to consolidate expertise and finally achieve a space program that was unified in fact as well as in name. The proposal came in a 64-page document nicknamed The Green Book, which became one of the founding documents of CSRO's successor, the Boreoamerican Space Association, or BSA. In 1969, the planned consolidation was completed, and the BSA was founded.
One of the major tasks for the new BSA was the construction of a new launch site. In order to more easily achieve geosynchronous transfer orbit for communications satellites, a site on or near the equator is ideal. Additionally, the site needed to be far away from large populated areas due to the noise produced by rocket launches. For this reason, Punta Cana in East Dominica was chosen as the new main launch site for the BSA. The site was built in 1971; it was named McKellar Space Center until 1988, when it was renamed Lodge Space Center.
 
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From the looks of it, the choice of Atlanta does seem random. Besides the existence of the Chattahoochee River, I don't see any reason why the Atlanta equivalent wouldn't just as likely exist 10-20 to the East of it's OTL location. And of course if Carolina had poor trade relationships with the "Midwest" ASB states, then Atlanta would really have no reason to exist at all ITTL.

Now this is very half-assed research (Google image searching), but the maps that I found all agree on this: that railroad initially went only as far as eastern and central Tennessee (TTL's Watauga and Upper Virginia): here is a nice, clear map. The other line from Atlanta ran to Charleston. That is absolutely a route that would be important in TTL, as it connects the major English population centers of the South with the capitals of Cherokee and Muscogia. Now it's possible/likely that the hub was not built exactly where Atlanta is in OTL, but there is surely a city in the area, and the border was drawn so as to include it.

Of course, what is neat about this area is the fact that Atlanta is not only in the area where the historic borders between the Cherokee and Muscogee blurred but it also just so happens to be a great place for farmland. So in the context of the ASB, I could see Carolina playing the Cherokee and Muscogee nations against each other in order to secure some extra pristine farmland, and then, depending on how Carolina's relationship with the more Northern ASB states develops, you could potentially see the Carolinian government start developing ASB Atlanta as a transport hub a couple of decades behind schedule.

Yes! I'm guessing you are in/from Atlanta? If you want to contribute more, go ahead. I like the light that we are shedding on the development of western Carolina, not to mention Muscogia and Cherokee.

With that said, what is the Muscogia-Carolina border based on?

It follows the division between the Flint River and Ocmulgee drainage basins. I don't know whether it follows that line precisely or just approximates it.
 
Now this is very half-assed research (Google image searching), but the maps that I found all agree on this: that railroad initially went only as far as eastern and central Tennessee (TTL's Watauga and Upper Virginia): here is a nice, clear map. The other line from Atlanta ran to Charleston. That is absolutely a route that would be important in TTL, as it connects the major English population centers of the South with the capitals of Cherokee and Muscogia. Now it's possible/likely that the hub was not built exactly where Atlanta is in OTL, but there is surely a city in the area, and the border was drawn so as to include it.

My apologies! Didn't mean to imply that Atlanta couldn't exist at all - just meant to imply that the location isn't special enough to guarantee that a city planted there would blossom to become a Major Metro instead of remaining a smaller city like the other train hub towns in Georgia/on the Georgia border.

But at any rate and with what you've written above, I definitely think you can justify Atlanta existing and being a major city of the ASB.

Yes! I'm guessing you are in/from Atlanta? If you want to contribute more, go ahead. I like the light that we are shedding on the development of western Carolina, not to mention Muscogia and Cherokee.

Ha. Well I've definitely been around the place enough to learn a thing of two.

And sure, I'd love to help develop that bit of the ASB! Admittedly, my knowledge is limited to the more post Civil War side of history, but yeah, hopefully it's good enough.

It follows the division between the Flint River and Ocmulgee drainage basins. I don't know whether it follows that line precisely or just approximates it.

Oh! That actually clears things up and a clever choice I must say.

With that said though, I do have one question to help things move forward.

What do you have in mind so far on the relationship between Moscogee people and the Carolinian/English people in the late 1700s/early 1800s period? I mean on the one hand, the Muscogee where clearly strong/smart enough to resist English influence , but on the other hand, the lost of the Ocmulgee drainage basin -which includes religiously significant mounds - must have soured relations between the two for years...

Thanks!
 
My apologies! Didn't mean to imply that Atlanta couldn't exist at all - just meant to imply that the location isn't special enough to guarantee that a city planted there would blossom to become a Major Metro instead of remaining a smaller city like the other train hub towns in Georgia/on the Georgia border. But at any rate and with what you've written above, I definitely think you can justify Atlanta existing and being a major city of the ASB.

I was saying the exact same thing. Please don't apologize! Your post caused me to re-examine the border and seriously consider the possibility that it needed to be changed. Looking at the likely rail routes - based on the location of major English settlements and the obvious advantage of going around the bottom of the Appalachians - I was reassured that there is something there after all.

What do you have in mind so far on the relationship between Moscogee people and the Carolinian/English people in the late 1700s/early 1800s period? I mean on the one hand, the Muscogee where clearly strong/smart enough to resist English influence , but on the other hand, the lost of the Ocmulgee drainage basin -which includes religiously significant mounds - must have soured relations between the two for years...

I haven't worked out much beyond the broadest outline of the geopolitics. The Cherokee ended up being a solid English client, and the Choctaw were a client of the French. The Muskogee/Creeks stayed more aloof and tried to play all sides, though I have imagined them as tending to gravitate toward the Spanish: the Spanish were strong enough to be a worthwhile ally, but too weak to really be a threat to the Muskogee villages themselves. I'd like to make use of the person of Alexander McGillivray, or some similar doppelganger, if I can. French and Creek on his mother's side, the descendant of Highland chiefs on his father's. He almost seems like someone who somehow snuck into OTL from this timeline. But I haven't read enough about the Creeks and their history to really do a detailed history yet.

The maps that I have seen show that by the late 1700s, the major Muskogee villages were to the west of where I have drawn the border. So they might not like Carolians running around in the Oculgee, but it was definitely outside their core lands and they didn't have much ability to defend it by war or diplomacy. That's how I see it, anyway. But yes it does imply some conflict or hostility at some point.
 
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I don't have much new text to accompany this, but it's an expansion of the map that I made of Ohio almost two years back. It's vague and blobby, but I think it's decent enough to share. You can see why the outcome of the 1802 war was a neutral Ohio: there were just so many competing factions. Most of the colors are self-explanatory. Purple represents the alliance between Christiana and the western Lenape, temporarily reinforced by soldiers from Sweden. The purple appears alongside Pennsylvania's green because Christiana remains partly dependent on Pennsylvania. The pale orange north of Lake Erie is Massachusetts territory. Many towns in Ohio have more than one color because multiple powers maintain a presence there.

ohio country reference.jpg
 
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I was saying the exact same thing. Please don't apologize! Your post caused me to re-examine the border and seriously consider the possibility that it needed to be changed. Looking at the likely rail routes - based on the location of major English settlements and the obvious advantage of going around the bottom of the Appalachians - I was reassured that there is something there after all.

Ah. Gotcha. Glad things worked out then!

I haven't worked out much beyond the broadest outline of the geopolitics. The Cherokee ended up being a solid English client, and the Choctaw were a client of the French. The Muskogee/Creeks stayed more aloof and tried to play all sides, though I have imagined them as tending to gravitate toward the Spanish: the Spanish were strong enough to be a worthwhile ally, but too weak to really be a threat to the Muskogee villages themselves. I'd like to make use of the person of Alexander McGillivray, or some similar doppelganger, if I can. French and Creek on his mother's side, the descendant of Highland chiefs on his father's. He almost seems like someone who somehow snuck into OTL from this timeline. But I haven't read enough about the Creeks and their history to really do a detailed history yet.

The maps that I have seen show that by the late 1700s, the major Muskogee villages were to the west of where I have drawn the border. So they might not like Carolians running around in the Oculgee, but it was definitely outside their core lands and they didn't have much ability to defend it by war or diplomacy. That's how I see it, anyway. But yes it does imply some conflict or hostility at some point.

So I decided to look up some relevant history of the Mounds I was talking about, and got these definitely relevant bits of history about the Ocmulgee Creek from the Mounds' Wikipedia (Yeah yeah) page - a lot of it which dovetails pretty well with what you've done so far with the ASB. And as a bonus, you can totally justify the use of Alexander McGillivray!

Ocmulgee National Monument Wikipedia Page said:
By the late 18th century, the largest American Indian confederacy in present-day Georgia and Alabama was the Muscogee (known during the colonial and federal periods as the Creek Indians), part of the Muskogean-speaking peoples. They considered the ancient Mississippian mounds at Ocmulgee to be sacred and made pilgrimages there. According to Muscogee oral tradition, the mounds area was "the place where we first sat down," after their ancestors ended their migration journey from the West.[12]

In 1690, Scottish fur traders from Carolina built a trading post on Ochese Creek (Ocmulgee River), near the Macon Plateau mounds. Some Muscogee created a village along the Chattahoochee River near the post, where they could easily acquire trade goods. They defied efforts by Spanish Florida to bring them into the mission province of Apalachee.[13]

The traders referred to both the river and the peoples living along it as Ochese Creek. Later usage shortened the term to Creek, which traders and colonists applied to all Muskogean-speaking peoples.[13] The Muscogee called their village near the trading-post Ocmulgee (bubbling waters) in the local Hitchiti language. The British colonists called it Ocmulgee Town, later the basis of their naming the river.

The Muscogee traded pelts of white tailed deer and Indian slaves captured in raids against other tribes. They received West Indian rum, cloth, glass beads, axes, swords, and flintlocks. Carolinian fur traders, who were men of capital, took Muscogee wives, often the daughters of chiefs. It was a practice common also among the British fur traders in Canada; both the fur traders and American Indians saw such marriages as a way to increase the alliances among the elite of both cultures. The fur traders encouraged the Muscogee slaving raids against Spanish "Mission Indians." British colonists were so few in number that they depended on Indian alliances for security and survival.

In 1702 South Carolina Governor Col. James Moore raised a militia of 50 colonists and 1,000 Yamasee and Ochese Creek warriors. From 1704 to 1706, they attacked and destroyed a significant number of Spanish missions of coastal Georgia and Florida. They captured numerous Mission Indians: the Timucua and Apalachee, some of whom the colonists and their Indian allies sold into slavery. Together with extensive fatalities from infectious disease epidemics, the warfare caused Florida's indigenous population to fall from about 16,000 in 1685 to 3,700 by 1715.[14]

As Florida was depopulated, the English-allied tribes grew indebted to slave traders. They paid other tribes to attack and enslave Indians, raids that were a catalyst for the Yamasee War in 1715. In an effort to drive the colonists out, the Ochese Creek joined the rebellion and burned the Ocmulgee trading post. In retaliation, South Carolina began arming the Cherokee, whose attacks forced the Ochese Creek to abandon the Ocmulgee and Oconee rivers, and move west to the Chattahoochee. The Yamasee took refuge in Spanish Florida.

So based on this, you can have a rough timeline of Carolina securing de facto control of the Ocmulgee River in the early 1700s due to whatever Creek-Carolina War with the border only officially established due to treaties in the late 1700s. Likewise, you can also have the Cherokee gain the former Muscogee territory of Atlanta (but not as forceful in populating the area as the Carolinians were in their war gains). Thus when the mid-1800s and an influx of Carolinian colonists comes around, Carolina more or less bullies the Cherokee in giving them control of what would become Atlanta - thus finalizing the current Cherokee-Carolina border.

How does that sound?
 
So based on this, you can have a rough timeline of Carolina securing de facto control of the Ocmulgee River in the early 1700s due to whatever Creek-Carolina War with the border only officially established due to treaties in the late 1700s. Likewise, you can also have the Cherokee gain the former Muscogee territory of Atlanta (but not as forceful in populating the area as the Carolinians were in their war gains). Thus when the mid-1800s and an influx of Carolinian colonists comes around, Carolina more or less bullies the Cherokee in giving them control of what would become Atlanta - thus finalizing the current Cherokee-Carolina border.

How does that sound?

A gradual shift in control due to population pressure is more or less what I had in mind. Yes, this can be the basic timeline for that region.

By coincidence, I found an old document yesterday where I called the state "Muscoquia". It makes a lot more sense given the pronunciation of the name. Or at least it should be "Muscoguia", with a hard G. (From the start, I've planned on using Spanish spelling for the name of It seems awfully late to make such a change... maybe I can just quietly shift the spelling to Muscoguia. Muscogia can be an obsolete nonstandard English spelling.

Nice map on the Ohio, but I actually would've loved it even more if we had the Dhegiha Siouan peoples (the Osage, Quapaw, Kansa, Ponca, and Omaha) avoid being driven out by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars and thus staying within the Ohio valley.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhegihan_History_and_Separation

That would have added a nice mix to Ohio's milleu of peoples, tribes, and cultures


I've been operating under the assumption that the Beaver Wars were essentially the same as in OTL, but you're right, more variety is always a good thing. You'll notice that the map I made does not go into detail about the indigenous tribes of the Ohio, just a few of the major outside groups.
 

Gian

Banned
I've been operating under the assumption that the Beaver Wars were essentially the same as in OTL, but you're right, more variety is always a good thing. You'll notice that the map I made does not go into detail about the indigenous tribes of the Ohio, just a few of the major outside groups.

So we can just shoehorn the Dhegiha anytime we so choose (maybe consider the scattered remnants that don't decide to go west)
 
Digging through this again, and I have a question about something that seems to haven't been talked about yet, Currency. What's the currency situation in the ASB?
 
Digging through this again, and I have a question about something that seems to haven't been talked about yet, Currency. What's the currency situation in the ASB?

I'm guessing they probably established a currency union sometime in the late 19th/early 20th century.
 
Whatever the official name of Boreoamerican currency, I favor them being called "Turtles" in colloquial speech because most of them have a turtle on the reverse side.
 
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