Aeolipile: A Roman Steam Engine?

[TIMER]

Bronze? As mentioned steel did exist at this time and iron was the norm.
snip

While steel existed it was produced in quantities of pounds by individual smiths for making knives and swords. The lightest practical rail for trains weighs around 50# per yard (current rails weigh about 110 to 120). To produce iron and steel in the needed quantities you technologies that the romans did not posess.

Its the problem of not having the tools to make the tools.

 

[Jaded_Railman]

You don't get systematic progress unless you have a real market where efficiency matters. I don't see where we get that in the Roman world unless they do start coal mining on a larger scale.

Actually, the Republican and early Imperial government had only a minor interest in trade and economy. The grain tithe and distribution, a few major resources that were very scarce (silk), and monetary control was about as far as things went. Traditional Roman culture looked down its nose at trade as a plebeian occupation. The early Empire existed in the closest the world would come to a free market economy until the Chinese Song dynasty.

Slavery is, of course, a major problem, but interestingly enough slaves weren't used in what industrial manufacturing there was all too often. It wasn't cost effective -- you either payed a very high price for an educated slave who is actually able to do the work you need him to do or a low price for a slave who mangles the process and eventually gets himself seriously injured. Of course, due to the primitiveness of the existing economy there wasn't as much manufacturing in 1st century Alexandria as there was in, say, 17th century Bristol or Flanders.

The significance of the aeolipile is its possible transmission east. If it can survive a few centuries until the rise of the Arab Caliphate, it can have significant knock-off effects because the Arabs took the surviving Roman economy in the East and advanced it in ways it simply hadn't been before. Likewise, if it can go further East, to China, by the Song that's exactly what the Song were missing -- a way to increase the productivity of labor. Song China already had proto-capitalism and a free market, it's just that it never reached that critical point where it becomes more profitable to employ labor in manufacturing than in agriculture.

 

[carlton_bach]

Actually, the Republican and early Imperial government had only a minor interest in trade and economy. The grain tithe and distribution, a few major resources that were very scarce (silk), and monetary control was about as far as things went. Traditional Roman culture looked down its nose at trade as a plebeian occupation. The early Empire existed in the closest the world would come to a free market economy until the Chinese Song dynasty.

Slavery is, of course, a major problem, but interestingly enough slaves weren't used in what industrial manufacturing there was all too often. It wasn't cost effective -- you either payed a very high price for an educated slave who is actually able to do the work you need him to do or a low price for a slave who mangles the process and eventually gets himself seriously injured. Of course, due to the primitiveness of the existing economy there wasn't as much manufacturing in 1st century Alexandria as there was in, say, 17th century Bristol or Flanders.

The significance of the aeolipile is its possible transmission east. If it can survive a few centuries until the rise of the Arab Caliphate, it can have significant knock-off effects because the Arabs took the surviving Roman economy in the East and advanced it in ways it simply hadn't been before. Likewise, if it can go further East, to China, by the Song that's exactly what the Song were missing -- a way to increase the productivity of labor. Song China already had proto-capitalism and a free market, it's just that it never reached that critical point where it becomes more profitable to employ labor in manufacturing than in agriculture.

The problem isn't that there isn't a market economy, it is that there isn't a market for first-generation steam engines.

Incidentally, it is very likely the aeolipile principle did survive. We find toys based on it in the 12th century. But again, we find toys.

 

[Jape]

Actually, the Republican and early Imperial government had only a minor interest in trade and economy. The grain tithe and distribution, a few major resources that were very scarce (silk), and monetary control was about as far as things went. Traditional Roman culture looked down its nose at trade as a plebeian occupation. The early Empire existed in the closest the world would come to a free market economy until the Chinese Song dynasty.

Slavery is, of course, a major problem, but interestingly enough slaves weren't used in what industrial manufacturing there was all too often. It wasn't cost effective -- you either payed a very high price for an educated slave who is actually able to do the work you need him to do or a low price for a slave who mangles the process and eventually gets himself seriously injured. Of course, due to the primitiveness of the existing economy there wasn't as much manufacturing in 1st century Alexandria as there was in, say, 17th century Bristol or Flanders.

The significance of the aeolipile is its possible transmission east. If it can survive a few centuries until the rise of the Arab Caliphate, it can have significant knock-off effects because the Arabs took the surviving Roman economy in the East and advanced it in ways it simply hadn't been before. Likewise, if it can go further East, to China, by the Song that's exactly what the Song were missing -- a way to increase the productivity of labor. Song China already had proto-capitalism and a free market, it's just that it never reached that critical point where it becomes more profitable to employ labor in manufacturing than in agriculture.

Interesting, I knew of the Arab Enlightenment but admit to little knowledge of Song China. So Roman (Hellenic Egypt whatever) tinkerings might lead to a Steampunk China! But seriously, a very interesting idea and given the Silk Road, I can't see how the idea might not appear in the East. Certainly a few Arab scienists would have messed around with the idea, passed it on.

Combined with Chinese exploration in the Indian and Pacific Oceans (I believe this was during the Song Dynasty) perhaps a Sinowank is in the making

 

[Jaded_Railman]

Interesting, I knew of the Arab Enlightenment but admit to little knowledge of Song China. So Roman (Hellenic Egypt whatever) tinkerings might lead to a Steampunk China! But seriously, a very interesting idea and given the Silk Road, I can't see how the idea might not appear in the East. Certainly a few Arab scienists would have messed around with the idea, passed it on.

China under the earlier Song dynasty had a lot in common with 18th century Europe. It's actually hard to understand why it didn't produce an industrial revolution. It certainly seems to have been going that way -- things like iron and textile production shot through the roof during the Song. My personal theory is that industrial revolutions can't happen without productive enough labor that the cost/profit ratio goes down.

What a steam engine does is it greatly increases the ability of an individual unit of labor to produce, neatly solving that problem.

Combined with Chinese exploration in the Indian and Pacific Oceans (I believe this was during the Song Dynasty) perhaps a Sinowank is in the making

That was the Ming dynasty, actually.

 

[freodhoric]

Well, they need a lot better fuel than wood.

Why? Wood worked to power trains for quite a while. Not as good as coal, but more widely available.

I was told by someone whose name I cannot recall that steam engines able to put out the necessary power to do something like power the machines that ran factories or trains simply could not be invented that much earlier than IOTL because the metallurgy hadn't caught up yet. There were simply no metals strong enough to withstand and contain the forces produced.

<snip>

Is the above assertion true?

I've read a similar assertion, but more to the tune of that the problem is sufficient accuracy in the machining tools to make a tighter fit for the cylinders. If the pistons don't fit in the cylinders tight, steam goes around the piston instead of pushing it. I'm not sure how that would apply to the Aeolipile.

Bronze? As mentioned steel did exist at this time and iron was the norm.

Bronze has a very nice advantage over iron or steel in that it doesn't rust. I'm not sure that iron is significantly stronger. After all, cannon were made of bronze for a very, very long time, but rarely iron. They only lost out to cheap steel.

 

[Jaded_Railman]

I've read a similar assertion, but more to the tune of that the problem is sufficient accuracy in the machining tools to make a tighter fit for the cylinders. If the pistons don't fit in the cylinders tight, steam goes around the piston instead of pushing it. I'm not sure how that would apply to the Aeolipile.

Ah, this makes a lot of sense. I suppose, however, you could spend up the advances in mechanics faster than you could speed up advances in metallurgy.

 

[Umbral]

These Garamantes sound very interesting... would there be enough ground-water around to keep them going though, even with steam power?
Although they could switch to desalinisation if ever they get a coastline...

They make my cool-meter go all the way to "pulp"

I think what they'd get would be a temporary solution. They'd get better at pumping up the groundwater, so it'd deplete faster. However, at the start, eve minor improvements to the tech would mean big gains in efficiency.

So they'd be driven to keep improving the tech, chasing ever more elusive water. I suspect they could have kept it going for 300-400 extra years at least. Maybe more if they got really good.

Soone or later, they'd run out, especially as increased waterpumping means a bigger population, hence bigger demand for water.

 

[Mark E.]

A communication POD

Suppose, around 120 AD, an accident of insight occurred in Rome. A plumber, carrying molten lead, spills the lead onto a plaque in the process of being carved. The hardened lead is peeled off and dropped onto wet sand. When cooled, the plumber and carver saw the legible impression and experienced a flash of insight.

Suppose carved words and letters could be arranged and pressed into the wax tablets used for carrying information. There was no paper in Rome and papyrus and parchment was not available for commercial use.

An early form of printing would evolve, first centered on the wax tablets available at the time. Within decades, literacy would improve and so would the supply of people capable of communicating and innovating.

Hero's engine, the quest for printing and the quest for better metals would happen simultaneously. Knowledge and communication would bring innovation. Now, if the Roman empire could remain more stable after the death of Marcus Aurelius, all the better. Expeditions to China could exchange Roman printing and Roman concrete (used to build the Pantheon) for Chinese ironworking and paper manufacture.

There you go. Paper, iron, printing, communication, steam engine. Rome flows into the Renaissance faster than the Huns and Goths can build the forces that took them down.

 

[abas]

I've read a similar assertion, but more to the tune of that the problem is sufficient accuracy in the machining tools to make a tighter fit for the cylinders. If the pistons don't fit in the cylinders tight, steam goes around the piston instead of pushing it. I'm not sure how that would apply to the Aeolipile.

Till 1854 the pistons were fitted with hem.

Bronze has a very nice advantage over iron or steel in that it doesn't rust. I'm not sure that iron is significantly stronger. After all, cannon were made of bronze for a very, very long time, but rarely iron. They only lost out to cheap steel.

Bronze has yet another advantage over iron since it can be cast in forms and wrought iron which was used over centuries is rather soft.

 

[Mark E.]

The steam engine was the product of a substantial amount of metallurgical science and information exchange that was not available in Roman times. My posting above describes a scenario that would change history in far greater measures than the steam engine. To have a Roman steam engine of early 19th century caliber, it would take a major POD.

 

[oberstklein]

very interesting

The steam engine was the product of a substantial amount of metallurgical science and information exchange that was not available in Roman times. My posting above describes a scenario that would change history in far greater measures than the steam engine. To have a Roman steam engine of early 19th century caliber, it would take a major POD.

It's fascinating to think of how our world would look today if the industrial revolution had happened that much earlier...Heron of Alexandria was quite the genius for his time...though I see that Vitruvius alludes to an earlier inventor. Neat stuff..I'd love to see a timeline with this stuff