Advice on Divergence for the Roman Empire

Augustus' Dream Empire

Hi this would be my first major attempt at creating an alternate timeline. I'm relatively new at the map thing and so I don't really have the official colors for certain states.(Sorry!) I had a timeline with two main divergences.

Here is the map from 427CI (Years are done since the Senate declared Octavian Emperor. In Latin Its Conditam Imperator.) The previous map had the Empire own territory up to the Vistula River however a combination of the look of the Empire plus the overall size of the Empire made me reverse it and make the river Oder River the borders and I moved Rome a bit closer towards where the Carpathians are and made that kinda another natural border they use.

The Empire is formally created in 1CI when the Senate confers upon Octavian, the title Augustus. The following year Imperatrix Livia Drusilla Caesar gives birth to the first son of Imperator Augustus, Lucius Julius Caesar Augustus. Lucius is groomed to be his father's successor both by Livia and Augustus himself. Tiberius Drusus is left mostly to his own devices except for plans in the extremity of Lucius' death and military campaigns.

Tiberius Drusus is sent 31CI to aid the troops in Magna Germania in subjugating the many tribes located in the region. Publius Quinctilius Varus, a favored general of the Senate was sent to quell a rebellion in Illyricum. Arminius, Varus' close advisor and also a German was furious at the news. It would later be found out that he had planned to unify the Germans and defeat the Romans during the early battles of the Germaniae Bella.(War of Germany) The battles in Germany initially go well until the rebellion in Illyricum and by that time Tiberius along with allies Gaius Sentius Saturninus and Marcus Aemilius Lepidus had made the borders of Rome almost reach the Elbe.

After the rebellion began many legions previously assigned to aid in defeating the Germans were now moved to Illyricum to help Varus. From 33CI to 35CI the land gained by Tiberius, Gaius, and Marcus slowed to almost a crawl and it was only in early 36CI that they finally finished their conquests up to the entire Elbe river. The final battle was fought in what is today Tiberias(OTL Osnabruck) was a catastrophic defeat for the Germans. Those that were able to flee moved eastward deeper into Germania and were thus able to continue plaguing the Roman border like when it was at the Rhine, however, Imperator felt that keeping the Imperial border along the Elbe was safer then retreating back to the Rhine and allowing the tribes they recently subjugated to regain their freedoms.

In 27CI Lucius was brought forth to the Senate by Augustus. Augustus sought the approval of the Senate for Lucius to ensure that his son would be his successor in the case of Augustus' death.(This starts a precedent of the Imperators seeking the approval of the Senate for their successor.)

Finally in 41CI Augustus passes away and is succeeded by Lucius. Lucius had by this time already been married to Claudia Aemilia and had a son Germanicus. In 43CI the Senate wished to bestow upon Lucius' mother Livia the title of Mater Patriae(Mother of the Fatherland designed to go in hand with Augustus' Pater Patriae.) Lucius swiftly passes the bill in an honor to his mother.

Roman Empire Example 400AD.png
 
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Oh Eurofed will love this.

Also, that map is based on a really old one. I think Iori has a 100 AD map on the newer basemap. Or just use this big map and fill in nations as needed.

However about the scenario:

  • I don't think the Germanic tribes would all escape northeast like that. They'd probably just be absorbed by the Romans. Or not be absorbed, and end up as a problematic group of barbarians within Roman territory. Also I'm pretty sure Baltic peoples and Slavs already inhabited the territories you have the Germans in on your map.
  • Armenia would have to cross the Caucasus mountains to conquer those regions. Again I don't think they'd escape like that, they'd just be absorbed by the Romans.
  • A Rome as big as that would be quite unstable and would probably be divided into two pieces.
 
Oh Eurofed will love this.

Also, that map is based on a really old one. I think Iori has a 100 AD map on the newer basemap. Or just use this big map and fill in nations as needed.

However about the scenario:

  • I don't think the Germanic tribes would all escape northeast like that. They'd probably just be absorbed by the Romans. Or not be absorbed, and end up as a problematic group of barbarians within Roman territory. Also I'm pretty sure Baltic peoples and Slavs already inhabited the territories you have the Germans in on your map.
  • Armenia would have to cross the Caucasus mountains to conquer those regions. Again I don't think they'd escape like that, they'd just be absorbed by the Romans.
  • A Rome as big as that would be quite unstable and would probably be divided into two pieces.

Haha thanks for everything. I'll use that newer map and fill it in so that it at least looks a little better. I had actually moved the Baltic peoples originally north of the major area for the germans and the Venedae(Apparently the West Slavs around that time) right east of them while the East Slavs remained between the Aral and Caspian Seas. Since it seem that the Germans and Armenians would just allow themselves to be absorbed maybe best option then is just leave the Baltic tribes where they are historically and maybe move the East Slavs into where Armenia is right now?

I had intended for a reformer around 300AD create administratively a more USA federated state system instead of Rome's provincial system. Of course the system would be relatively primitive and its not to toot the USA system but I think that would be the best way to keep the Empire together. If its too borderline ASB then I guess the best option would be split it 3 ways but I kinda wanna keep it as 1 and allow for bigger states like Persia to balance the large Rome.
 
Haha thanks for everything. I'll use that newer map and fill it in so that it at least looks a little better. I had actually moved the Baltic peoples originally north of the major area for the germans and the Venedae(Apparently the West Slavs around that time) right east of them while the East Slavs remained between the Aral and Caspian Seas. Since it seem that the Germans and Armenians would just allow themselves to be absorbed maybe best option then is just leave the Baltic tribes where they are historically and maybe move the East Slavs into where Armenia is right now?

I had intended for a reformer around 300AD create administratively a more USA federated state system instead of Rome's provincial system. Of course the system would be relatively primitive and its not to toot the USA system but I think that would be the best way to keep the Empire together. If its too borderline ASB then I guess the best option would be split it 3 ways but I kinda wanna keep it as 1 and allow for bigger states like Persia to balance the large Rome.

Well the Slavs were all one group back then. Again I'd say that they probably wouldn't migrate away from Rome. When the Romans conquer Gaul, was there a huge Gallic exodus to Britain and Germania? No. The ones inside of the Empire would be gradually Romanized and the ones outside would stay where they were.

What do you mean by a 'USA federated state system' as opposed to the Roman provincial system?
 
Well the Slavs were all one group back then. Again I'd say that they probably wouldn't migrate away from Rome. When the Romans conquer Gaul, was there a huge Gallic exodus to Britain and Germania? No. The ones inside of the Empire would be gradually Romanized and the ones outside would stay where they were.

What do you mean by a 'USA federated state system' as opposed to the Roman provincial system?

True true so probably change everything to merge the slavs together and move the Baltics back to where the Germans are right now.(Leave one tribe though as they were located around there.)

Kinda a bad way to explain it but in all honesty I have never deeply researched how their government iwth the magistrates worked but from the little I had seen it seemed a bit too bureaucratic and confusing and so the plan would be to divide it up like this

Provinces: equivalent to the Diocese that were created in the late Empire. They in the USA would be the states. There would be around 20-30 of these.

Counties(Not called a County of course): equivalent to the early empire provinces. Would range from 40-100 in a province depending on how large the province is and the population of it.(German provinces would initially be sparse and have a lot less counties then say Italia)

Finally There are the local civil governments of the civitas or colonia. In the case of a colonia it would be governed by an official appointed by the Emperor or representative of him. civitas are elected like a standard towns mayor. Colonia become civitas after a reaching a specific population and in the case of those colonia in counties/provinces near the border are safe enough from an attack.

Example in France I would have two provinces, Aquitania and Gallia. I think as I remember Aquitania is more populated and would thus contain around 50 counties while Gallia held 43. The province capital for Gallia would be as of right now I feel like Reims but if Paris gains prominence like she did OTL then it would be moved there. Aquitania's capital is Lyon.

The head of certain provinces would be appointed especially in provinces located near the border or those the Emperor feels needs to appoint.(Like Aegyptus for Augustus.) The provinces that would not have the leader appointed are elected from the counties. He is the Proconsul and would be the administrator of the province. He runs the province for 2 years unless reelected or reappointed. Annually he must report the status of the province to the Senate and Emperor.(This would occur on a set date and all proconsuls from all provinces would attend.) If running the province inefficiently he would be removed from office either by the Senate with the Emperor's approval or just at the decision of the Emperor. Provinces created as electable provinces cannot be changed to Imperial Provinces unless approved by the Senate.(The senate has a bit more powers then OTL but is mostly still a rubber stamp body so they'd almost always approve the change.) the Imperial provinces changing to an electable province can be done without senate approval.

This is just an idea in place in my head. some of the concepts are a bit too modern perhaps for Rome's timeframe as of now but maybe there is a way to properly explain this. The goal I head with the reforms was make it so the Emperor is like a hereditary president with a bit extra powers and the legislative senate a mostly symbolic body but does have some powers.

EDIT: I made a first draft of what the provinces would be and the black dots represent the capitals. and did not intend for the large size...

Roman Province Example.png
 
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You could probably get a stronger Roman presence in Germania. You could probably get a longer lasting (Western) Roman Empire.

Your PODs may help with that.

But unless hereditary succession is so firmly enshrined into law that by the point things start eroding for the dynasty (and they will, sooner or latter), you will have the Imperator Problem.

Hell, if the dynasty dies out in the male line, you might get it. Its a problem hard to fix at this point.

And limiting the Emperor's power...

Exactly how are you going to make that work with a (mostly) powerless Senate?

An Emperor with the loyalty of the army has only his rivals and his conscience to check him. Maybe the mob, but the mob doesn't care.

And I'm not saying this as a snob - just looking at how no Roman emperor OTL was ever overthrown by the mob for being autocratic, and nothing about this changes the interests of the common people in that regard.
 
You could probably get a stronger Roman presence in Germania. You could probably get a longer lasting (Western) Roman Empire.

Your PODs may help with that.

But unless hereditary succession is so firmly enshrined into law that by the point things start eroding for the dynasty (and they will, sooner or latter), you will have the Imperator Problem.

Hell, if the dynasty dies out in the male line, you might get it. Its a problem hard to fix at this point.

And limiting the Emperor's power...

Exactly how are you going to make that work with a (mostly) powerless Senate?

An Emperor with the loyalty of the army has only his rivals and his conscience to check him. Maybe the mob, but the mob doesn't care.

And I'm not saying this as a snob - just looking at how no Roman emperor OTL was ever overthrown by the mob for being autocratic, and nothing about this changes the interests of the common people in that regard.

Legit points I've thought about it and felt perhaps the best scenario is have a huge civil war between two of the current emperors sons.(One is elder but is suspected of being illegitimate while the other is younger but his legitimacy is certain.) The army is split between each son and the Senate is torn on who to side with. They decide to hold on declaring their support until after a few battles it becomes apparent. Both sons seek their aid as the added Senate forces(Army members who remained neutral) are the numbers each son needs to win the civil war. In return for gaining their aid one of the sons will secede some of his powers back to the Senate.

The results of this civil war would devastate the Empire for the next generation and was mostly fought in the provinces that would split the West and East draining their wealth from all the destruction. Positive results are the Caesar family is still ruling the Empire, the Imperator is more like a president power wise but he is hereditary, the Senate functions like a 1 body Congress, and the Judicial System kinda remains out of the loop. Around 600AD when Catholicism becomes a state religion is when a sorta Justinian's code laws are created to go in line with Catholic beliefs.

Is this a working situation to kinda keep the Empire intact.(That's my ultimate goal of everything but if its almost impossible then perhaps it must be split.)
 
It's a well known bugbear of mine on this forum, but a Roman conquest (well, pacification and assimilation) of Germania in the 1st century AD isn't too plausible, given the primitive levels of contemporary Germanic society, which means there's a lack of an easily "Romanisable" (new adjective there!) local elite as there was in Gaul and Britain. Now, Germania did develop these elites, but wasn't really at the level of 1st century BC Gaul until around the year 300. The best bet for a Roman conquest of Germania, therefore, is to somehow do it in the fourth century, though this will require a lot of butterflies. I'd say that Germania needs to spend a minimum of two centuries in close contact with the Roman Empire before it's worth conquering.

Regarding settling the constitution in the way you suggest, this sort of thing did actually quite frequently happen- Emperors in civil wars were always eager to secure the support of the Senate, right up until 1204. The trouble with a long established dictatorial and autocratic office is that it becomes very difficult for the autocratic dictator in question to even imagine giving away his powers to a group of aristocrats, many of whom will look down on the Emperor in question for being somehow illegitimate. Furthermore, the Senate doesn't really work as a "Congress" analogy because it wasn't constantly in session, and the overwhelming majority of Senators were far more concerned about their own landed wealth than they were about the well-being of the Empire.

"Saving Rome" ideas are always good, but I'm afraid I don't think that yours' is particularly plausible. I'd like to see you try it, mind, but I just think it still needs a fair bit more work.

Also, expect my honourable Romanowank sparring partner Eurofed to descend and declare everything I have said here to be a load of nonsensical crap. :p
 
It's a well known bugbear of mine on this forum, but a Roman conquest (well, pacification and assimilation) of Germania in the 1st century AD isn't too plausible, given the primitive levels of contemporary Germanic society, which means there's a lack of an easily "Romanisable" (new adjective there!) local elite as there was in Gaul and Britain. Now, Germania did develop these elites, but wasn't really at the level of 1st century BC Gaul until around the year 300. The best bet for a Roman conquest of Germania, therefore, is to somehow do it in the fourth century, though this will require a lot of butterflies. I'd say that Germania needs to spend a minimum of two centuries in close contact with the Roman Empire before it's worth conquering.

Regarding settling the constitution in the way you suggest, this sort of thing did actually quite frequently happen- Emperors in civil wars were always eager to secure the support of the Senate, right up until 1204. The trouble with a long established dictatorial and autocratic office is that it becomes very difficult for the autocratic dictator in question to even imagine giving away his powers to a group of aristocrats, many of whom will look down on the Emperor in question for being somehow illegitimate. Furthermore, the Senate doesn't really work as a "Congress" analogy because it wasn't constantly in session, and the overwhelming majority of Senators were far more concerned about their own landed wealth than they were about the well-being of the Empire.

"Saving Rome" ideas are always good, but I'm afraid I don't think that yours' is particularly plausible. I'd like to see you try it, mind, but I just think it still needs a fair bit more work.

Also, expect my honourable Romanowank sparring partner Eurofed to descend and declare everything I have said here to be a load of nonsensical crap. :p

Haha I used Teutoberg Forest to explain the conquering of Germania as I knew that battle was what spooked the Romans and made them stay at the Rhine and Danube instead of trying to hold the Elbe and even further Assimilation hadn't really been thought of yet.

Perhaps for the Senate and Senators if the younger son(The one I was thinking about winning around 160AD not too late enough for the Emperors to be too autocratic?) wins and gives the Senate powers but in return requires it to convene once a month?

My big plan is now I feel more about actually putting the timeline and everything on the forums is work out all the crazy stuff like as we know now the Armenian and German migration and once certain things are settled like an efficient Roman government that would stand together and remain one we can then actually start the story with the first POD in 16BC.(Planning on changing the Dating system as well which would be better to use Founding of Rome or Augustus becoming Emperor? I favor the later a bit as its the Caesar dynasty in power and they'd of course go crazy over trying to make their founder as god-like as possible.)

We are making progress though :) the province/county/civitas system works? its more of just hammering out the Senate/Emperor stuff?

EDIT: Modified the first post now that I got my answer on the topic of the Germans and Armenians made a modified map and also included the plans for provinces and such that were described later. Also is there a way to shrink the maps?
 
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