Advanced American Indians

[Thermopylae]

I have an approximate migration map here. There are three major routes to the Americas. The first one that is uncontested is the Clovis area. But there are two other sites that predate Clovis, one found in Virginia (or West VA. I forget...) and the other in South America. So I'm going to include those as well.

Horses would follow the earliest peoples across Beringia, but they were small, not really horses. An early equine ancestor is what it is. (Plus an ox-like animal) It would also migrate, and, finding the rugged tundra of Alaska and whatnot too rugged, they would go south. The Canadian plains were covered mostly by glaciers then, so the equines would go further south, finding beautiful open plain. Plains=lotsa grass=high equine population. So the Clovis people would evolve with many horses and oxen about them. I have circled the area in gold. The horses would fan-out from there, eventually maing its way to the banks of the Rio Grande, go both east and west, and after a very long time probably make it to the Andean highlands. However, those equines in high areas (Rocky Mountains, Andes) would be smaller, so perhaps horses wouldn't take very well there.

So the way I see it, the Clovis, Messisippian, and whatever cultures border the Great Lakes and Hudson river would become predominant in North America. Then we have to consider what happens post glacier-melt...

 

[Othniel]

Yaks in America.....hmmmmmmmm

 

[The Sandman]

If we're going off of Guns, Germs, and Steel, then I think a double POD would be in order. First, there would need to be something more akin to wheat, barley, etc. available in America, so that there wouldn't be the issue of the millenia required to develop corn, squash, beans, and so forth as viable food crops. The other POD would be that the land bridge to the Americas forms (and then perhaps closes) earlier. That way, the tasty animals that were hunted out of existence in OTL would be able to evolve with modern human technology and tactics instead of having the most effective land predator of the day suddenly unleashed upon them.

 

[Darkest]

Instead of horses, what if llamas were widespread. I'm no scientist, so I can't say, but what if the ancestors of the llama spread into the plains instead of into the Andes (making them faster, hardier, larger, ect)? Where did the llamas come from anyway? Anyone want to idea-bounce off of this?

 

[Historico]

Wow that was an Great Site you linked to us...Don't worry about searching to find the original Tribal names for the Amerindians, just use our terms. I think the Mux Ox crossed the landbride with the Eophis and probably would survive in this TL.

Seeing the Prehistoric cultures evolve with Beasts of Burden to create Tribes similar to OTL with their practices and belifs...Imagine seeing the and Apache-like Tribe racing across the Great plains on their horses around 600 BCE. What about South America?

You also said whether or not to have Pre-Viking encounters in the New World. I also am in support of this, bringing Ancient World ideas into this Strange New World...Here are some great Precolumiban Links.

http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm

http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm


I really hope you Develop this TL, Themopalyae, It's gots lots of potential

 

[Hierophant]

Horses are originally a new world animal that spread to the rest of the world and died out in the americas. Just dont have them die out.

And I think that given time Buffaloes could be domesticated, especially if the Ameridians had experience with horses. I mean Buffaloe and Cattle are similar enough for crossbreeds to be developed, namely Beefalo.

 

[Diamond]

Don't worry about searching to find the original Tribal names for the Amerindians, just use our terms.

I totally disagree with this. That's just lazy and shows you don't care enough to do any research to make the TL believable. I'd rather see a completely made-up name for the alt-nations than seeing a nation in the Great Plains that had evolved to European levels on its own being called the Sioux...

 

[Othniel]

hmmm, It's quite easy to aviod confusion when using the OTL names as everybody knows their origins, but lacks inovation.

 

[Diamond]

hmmm, It's quite easy to aviod confusion when using the OTL names as everybody knows their origins, but lacks inovation.

That's the whole point!! These wouldn't be even remotely the same nations! The origins wouldn't be even close to being the same.

 

[Othniel]

well technically they will be (Asia), but I see your point.

 

[Thermopylae]

I'm continuing work on the map, following the design that I outlined in the first post. This world is going to be very interesting to write a history about, I can't wait till I get to the actual timeline bit of it.

I want some ideas concerning South America. My idea is that because the horse would take longer to get there, the S. American civs would look a little more familiar ITTL.

As for pre-Viking contact, I'm not so sure about that. The reports are sketchy at best... Maybe we could use a diferent disease-bringer. What was the name of the Welsh (or Irish or Scottish. I forget) monk who supposedly traveled to the new world? He could work. Or maybe the ancient Celtic ship, that too would work, however they wouldn't get innoculations from some diseases methinks, because IIRC some of the diseases were brought by Huns/Mongols, etc. Hmm...

 

[Historico]

I'm continuing work on the map, following the design that I outlined in the first post. This world is going to be very interesting to write a history about, I can't wait till I get to the actual timeline bit of it

I look forward to both

I want some ideas concerning South America. My idea is that because the horse would take longer to get there, the S. American civs would look a little more familiar ITTL.

True, I doub't much will change in South America, they already had the Llama and they pulled it off pretty nicely.

As for pre-Viking contact, I'm not so sure about that. The reports are sketchy at best... Maybe we could use a diferent disease-bringer. What was the name of the Welsh (or Irish or Scottish. I forget) monk who supposedly traveled to the new world? He could work. Or maybe the ancient Celtic ship, that too would work, however they wouldn't get innoculations from some diseases methinks, because IIRC some of the diseases were brought by Huns/Mongols, etc. Hmm...

St. Brendan was the Irish monk who supposedly discovered the New World. Don't worry about the middle ages diseases, however the Natives will have Imunity to some diseases not all of them. Here is an good website on Saint Brendan

http://www.castletown.com/brendan.htm

 

[Nicole]

If the North Americans have a city-building society by the time the Europeans show up, they may have some of their own diseases to pass on to the Europeans.

 

[Forum Lurker]

A possibility which doesn't require any new fauna available, but a single mutation in already-available flora: wild rice develops in a manner which allows for domestication in northern Minnesota. If I recall correctly, the Iron Range was the site of sedentism and copper mining (for ceremonial jewelry, rather than tools) as early as 3500 BCE. If sedentary villagers develop a high-calorie grain, that leads down the road towards cities and eventually states; even better, this particular location is already engaged in metallurgy, including the occasional use of fire-based mining techniques which might, with enough chance, result in the development of iron (given the incredibly rich deposits present in the area). It's also conveniently placed in a region heavily populated by the only animal large enough to work as a draft beast (the bison), and at the headwaters of North America's largest waterway.

The series of events would run something like this:

~3500 BCE: Accidental cultivation of "wild" rice begins.

~3200 BCE: Increased population (caused by higher rates of food production and sedentism) induces greater intensity in copper mining, resulting in the discovery of iron smelting.

~2500 BCE: Metallurgical, sedentary civilization spreads southwards along the Mississippi River, displacing non-metallurgical groups. Some of these, driven westward into the Great Plains, adopt a lifestyle similar to that of OTL Dakota, following the bison.

~2000 BCE: Aforementioned nomads domesticate the bison, developing pastoralism.

In this scenario, by the time Europeans arrive, there will be a thriving civilization based along the Mississipi and Colorado Rivers, likely running down all the way into the Gulf of Mexico. While the Gulf isn't as hospitable as the Mediterranean, and has less in the way of islands and archipelagos, it may still offer a reasonable venue in which to develop the sort of coastal vessels used by Mediterranean Iron Age civilizations; if this happens, it becomes quite possible for the North American culture to contact the Maya, trading knowledge of iron, bison, and wild rice for maize, and possibly even colonize the northern part of Venezuela, eventually making contact with the Andean civilizations and acquiring llamas and potatos. If I recall correctly, the northern Andes offer sufficient mineral wealth that, if they learn of it, Tikal or its descendants should be able to enter their own Iron Age. As noted, the domestication of bison also offers the possibility of developing a counterpart to smallpox, which would go a long way to even the scales between Amerinds and Europeans.

 

[Historico]

A possibility which doesn't require any new fauna available, but a single mutation in already-available flora: wild rice develops in a manner which allows for domestication in northern Minnesota. If I recall correctly, the Iron Range was the site of sedentism and copper mining (for ceremonial jewelry, rather than tools) as early as 3500 BCE. If sedentary villagers develop a high-calorie grain, that leads down the road towards cities and eventually states; even better, this particular location is already engaged in metallurgy, including the occasional use of fire-based mining techniques which might, with enough chance, result in the development of iron (given the incredibly rich deposits present in the area). It's also conveniently placed in a region heavily populated by the only animal large enough to work as a draft beast (the bison), and at the headwaters of North America's largest waterway.

The series of events would run something like this:

~3500 BCE: Accidental cultivation of "wild" rice begins.

~3200 BCE: Increased population (caused by higher rates of food production and sedentism) induces greater intensity in copper mining, resulting in the discovery of iron smelting.

~2500 BCE: Metallurgical, sedentary civilization spreads southwards along the Mississippi River, displacing non-metallurgical groups. Some of these, driven westward into the Great Plains, adopt a lifestyle similar to that of OTL Dakota, following the bison.

~2000 BCE: Aforementioned nomads domesticate the bison, developing pastoralism.

In this scenario, by the time Europeans arrive, there will be a thriving civilization based along the Mississipi and Colorado Rivers, likely running down all the way into the Gulf of Mexico. While the Gulf isn't as hospitable as the Mediterranean, and has less in the way of islands and archipelagos, it may still offer a reasonable venue in which to develop the sort of coastal vessels used by Mediterranean Iron Age civilizations; if this happens, it becomes quite possible for the North American culture to contact the Maya, trading knowledge of iron, bison, and wild rice for maize, and possibly even colonize the northern part of Venezuela, eventually making contact with the Andean civilizations and acquiring llamas and potatos. If I recall correctly, the northern Andes offer sufficient mineral wealth that, if they learn of it, Tikal or its descendants should be able to enter their own Iron Age. As noted, the domestication of bison also offers the possibility of developing a counterpart to smallpox, which would go a long way to even the scales between Amerinds and Europeans.

Interesting, Suggested scenario(Great Start for an Timeline) Wasn't in Minnesotta where scienctists found out that all the copper out the mines had allready been mined out? But Would the Bison become an good riding animal such as the Horse? And what of the Pacific(West Coast),the Woodlands(East Coast), and the Southwest develop with the bison?(Which I belive it would have to adapt to the climate, and evolution is hard to take place in only 1,00 years)

So I like the Horse and Musk Ox Scenario for their wide ranges and diversity for many other area's of the Americas.

 

[Forum Lurker]

It's true that by the time of European arrival the copper was mined out. It certainly wasn't gone 5500 years ago. It's true that bison might not make the best riding animal (though I'm not sure; camels and elephants weren't particularly well-suited, either, and they managed quite well); even if this is the case, I'd contend that riding animals are considerably less important than plow-hauling draft animals for the development of agricultural societies. I don't think that the climate differences are enough to slow the animal's spread; given the temperature extremes of the Great Plains area, the bison must already be adapted to temperatures between -40 and 100 Fahrenheit, and to extremes of humidity in the heat. Only parasites and diseases are really going to change, and that'll only keep them out of Florida and Mesoamerica, not the northern half of the continent. If that's an incorrect assumption then, well, I guess that the Amerinds will have to do exactly what the Europeans did, and breed a resistant animal.

I agree, it would be much nicer if the Americas had had horses, musk oxen, and a half dozen cultivars. I'm a minimalist, though, and if there's the possibility that one small change will do (which I feel is the case here), I'd rather not make a dozen large changes.

 

[Othniel]

Again, as I said, They'd be simular to yaks, oxen, and other cattle like animals. Gnus, Wildabeasts...Water Bufflo, ect.

 

[President Ledyard]

These are all huge POD's. I doubt 'Columbus' will be showing up. I like the Viking pollination idea to keep things relatively OTL-like and thus discussion friendly.

 

[Forum Lurker]

How, then, do we go about introducing Viking horses, crops, and metallurgy to North America in large numbers? If I recall, the settlement of Vinland failed due to a global cooling, leading to a collapse of the Greenland colony; since that's a geological process, I hesitate to change it. Instead, we'd have to have some way to allow the Norse to keep their colonies open even in a worsening climate. I've heard suggestions that a victory of Harold Godwinson at Hastings, or of Hardrada at Stamford, would open up such a possibility.

 

[Historico]

How, then, do we go about introducing Viking horses, crops, and metallurgy to North America in large numbers? If I recall, the settlement of Vinland failed due to a global cooling, leading to a collapse of the Greenland colony; since that's a geological process, I hesitate to change it. Instead, we'd have to have some way to allow the Norse to keep their colonies open even in a worsening climate. I've heard suggestions that a victory of Harold Godwinson at Hastings, or of Hardrada at Stamford, would open up such a possibility.

Harold winning at Hastings is an MAJOR POD ...Columbus most definatley wouldn't have showed up. What is so difficult with having the Eophus and the Musk Ox never go extinct in the Americas? Columbus is not that necessary in the direction that I think this TL is heading.