Adolf Hitler not antisemetic

As I said. It's a question that gets asked about once a month by someone who joins this website.

The answers always go in circles and often someone ends up being banned.

Ah, okay. Maybe we should ask the mods to close this thread before it gets out of hand?
 
You already answered your own question. If he'd been a little more pragmatic and listened to his generals and not tried to commit mass genocide and a world war simultaneously, he probably would've won (or atleast come closer to winning than he did).

Well, if by "winning" you mean completion of immediate hostilities with gains by Germany, okay. But his vision of "winning" was a Germans-only empire stretching to at least the Urals...
 
Homosexuals would obviously be deemed "Mentally Ill" and would be imprisoned (but not in what we'd call "humane" conditions). Perhaps Nazi scientists would perform experiments on Homosexual prisoners to try to find a "cure" for homosexuality, or maybe (since they're a small enough group) he'd just kill them outright. As for the Slavs, Gypsies, Poles, etc., they'd have been treated in much the same way the Chinese and Koreans were by the Japanese Empire. Basically "there's too many of them to kill, we'll keep them alive to do work for us and perhaps we'll let the best ones integrate into our society." Perhaps set up some Ukranian, Belarusian, Russian puppet governments, etc.

God, I hate Nazis.
 
You already answered your own question. If he'd been a little more pragmatic and listened to his generals and not tried to commit mass genocide and a world war simultaneously, he probably would've won (or atleast come closer to winning than he did).

OK. If you fundamentally change Hitler's strategy in terms of who he was going to war with and when, things would have been different. But Germany did have serious economic problems and it would not have been feasible to have them just "not invade Russia" or try other simplistic solutions.
 
God, I hate Nazis.

Their ideology is disgusting, hypocritical, non-sensical and just around impractical. What they did was absolutely inhumane, and must be treated as such. However, this is just my opinion on what a saner (but still a racist/homophobic b*stard) Hitler could've done. I am not condoning them in any way, shape, or form. (As a disabled, non-aryan person, I'd be little more than slave labor in their eyes. :eek:)
 
Well, if by "winning" you mean completion of immediate hostilities with gains by Germany, okay. But his vision of "winning" was a Germans-only empire stretching to at least the Urals...

If he'd been a little more in touch with reality, he'd have realized such a thing is impossible. There aren't enough Germans (nor Aryans, for that matter...) to repopulate Russia east of the Urals. Besides, who's gonna' do all the farming and labor that's unfit for Aryans? :p (Eech, gag me with a spoon. Even a less racist Hitler is still an utter B*stard)
 
Juilius Streicher, who strengthed the NSDAP in OTL by causing the dissolution of the Deutschsozialistische Partei (another National Socialist type party), instead leads the DSP as a anti-semetic rival to the NSDAP and contiune their electoral alliance with the Völkische Werkgemeinschaft. The Nazis lose other allies, like the Deutschvölkische Freiheitspartei, and becomes less attractive to former members of the very large and infulential (on the Nazis in OTL that is) Deutschvölkischer Schutz und Trutzbund.

The NSDAP, by closing itself off from so much of the Volkish movement from which it devired its support base, becomes an easily ignored inimitation of Italian Fascism, though Hitler's charisma and clever use of propaganda may make such a movement noticable to some. All of this assuming Hitler still gains control the NSDAP/DAP, which he very well may not. Instead, isolated from the other founders of the National Socialist movement, Hitler forms his own "Social Revolutionary Party" (what he wanted to call the Nazi Party originally, but was overruled by the others) all by himself. In which case, the Nazi Party forms without him.

Essentially, the German far-right would be Balkanised. :D
 
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I think what many people are saying, and I agree is that much of Germany of the day was already stronly bigoted against the Jewish people and unless Hitler shares that bigotry and exploits it, he isn't going to get anywhere.

HItler didn't invent Germany's hatred of Jewish people, Gypsies, homosexuals men and lesbians, and so on, he just exploited it.

Unless he uses it and fans the flames higher, Adolph Hitler is just going to be another political nobody.
 
I think what many people are saying, and I agree is that much of Germany of the day was already stronly bigoted against the Jewish people and unless Hitler shares that bigotry and exploits it, he isn't going to get anywhere.

HItler didn't invent Germany's hatred of Jewish people, Gypsies, homosexuals men and lesbians, and so on, he just exploited it.

Unless he uses it and fans the flames higher, Adolph Hitler is just going to be another political nobody.

Not necessarily, Hitler may gather a clique of followers and perhaps even get the attention and approval of Mussolini (who lavishly funded Fascist organistations outside of Italy, but disapproved of the anti-semetic and racialist Hitler). Many Germans may see his "Social Revolutionaries" as a more 'sane' alternative to the "National Socialists" who will be running wild without his moderating infulence (and Hitler was a moderating infulence in some areas), he may even "try to control" the Nazis as part of the right-wing coalition aganist the Weimar Republic. And, who knows, he be better at that than the Conservatives were.
 
Not necessarily, Hitler may gather a clique of followers and perhaps even get the attention and approval of Mussolini (who lavishly funded Fascist organistations outside of Italy, but disapproved of the anti-semetic and racialist Hitler). Many Germans may see his "Social Revolutionaries" as a more 'sane' alternative to the "National Socialists" who will be running wild without his moderating infulence (and Hitler was a moderating infulence in some areas), he may even "try to control" the Nazis as part of the right-wing coalition aganist the Weimar Republic. And, who knows, he be better at that than the Conservatives were.
Have you ever wondered why it was so EASY to get the lion's share of workaday everyday Germans to either not protest the persecution of the Jews or even in some cases activly go along with it.

Catholisism back then taught that Jews were bad, and Lutheran protestantism taught that Jews were the money lending muderers of the Christ.

Who do youthink invented the Blood Libel?

Modern Germans are fine people and I have nothing against them, but the world War Two Germans voted for Hitler specificaly because he unashamedly exploited a bitter hatred of Jews that they already felt.
 
Have you ever wondered why it was so EASY to get the lion's share of workaday everyday Germans to either not protest the persecution of the Jews or even in some cases activly go along with it.

Money, jobs and a purpose in life. National Socialism was also a genuinely attractive idea, presented perfectly.

Many people who had not been anti-semites previously became anti-semetic because they joined the Nazis (which is very creepy when you think about it), rather joining the Nazis because they were anti-Semetic. There are many stories of young Jews been devestated to discover that they couldn't join the Nazis like all their friends were.

Remember, the Nazis were able to out-compete other marginal anti-Semetic Volkish parties to a degree that is truly remarkable. If Hitler doesn't "exploit" (which is a bit unfair, he believed completely in what he said) anti-semeticism it will be harder for him to compete but not impossible.
 
The only way he *might* get into power somehow would be if instead of Judaeo-Bolshevik he turned into a major Russophobe of equal proportions to his OTL Jew-hatred. Aside from that......
 
The only way he *might* get into power somehow would be if instead of Judaeo-Bolshevik he turned into a major Russophobe of equal proportions to his OTL Jew-hatred. Aside from that......

Ironically, a huge part of the extreme anti-semitic literature pouring into Europe at this time was Russian in origin....
 
I think what many people are saying, and I agree is that much of Germany of the day was already stronly bigoted against the Jewish people and unless Hitler shares that bigotry and exploits it, he isn't going to get anywhere.

But this is just wrong. Nazi antisemetism played a minor role in their electioneering, which mainly focused on Versailles etc and the economic situation. Antisemetism simply did not enable the Nazis to come to power. To say that Germans voted for the Nazis "specificaly because he unashamedly exploited a bitter hatred of Jews" is a retrospective caricature both of the social position of antisemetism and the political MO of the Nazis. It's a far more detailed picture than that.

There are two hypotheticals here which are getting entangled and need to be seperated: Hitler simply not being a convinced antisemite, and Hitler being avowedly anti-antisemetic. In the first instance, there's no block to history proceeding as it did in OTL, in the second, there is for the reasons Maponus outlined above; alienation from the current of Volkisch orthodoxy which would place Hitler politically on a foundation of sand.
 
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I think the Porajmos against the Roma would still happen only even more intensified. The same for what happened to homosexuals, mentally/physically disabled,Rhineland Bastards and the insane. Not to mention how intensified their eugenics program would be with even more euthanasia and abortions. And even if Hitler wasn't antisemetic, several members of the Nazi Party were, so the Jews might still be targetted as deviants.
 
If Hitler had embraced a little something called "Realpolitik" he could've won the war.

Given Hitler set things up to happen as they did (and we have to give him credit for the victories from Operation White to the Operation Marita-Punishment duo), no amount of Realpolitik will put that humpty-dumpty together again. Hitler ensured Germany was seeking a war in four years, period. Any use of nationalist grievances was just a means to achieving the end of getting a war for the purpose of wholesale slaughter of Slavs and Jews, period. There was never Realpolitik on the part of Hitler.
 
You already answered your own question. If he'd been a little more pragmatic and listened to his generals and not tried to commit mass genocide and a world war simultaneously, he probably would've won (or atleast come closer to winning than he did).

These the same generals who were planning to bump off Hitler when he had not done a single act of armed aggression and everything he touched was turning to gold, the same generals who willingly both collaborated with Hitler's thanatocracy and went right for the Leonidas Polk school of warfare in deliberately trying to undermine the directives of a man already inclined to suspect the worst of a bunch of Feldherrn von Preussen? :rolleyes:
 

BlondieBC

Banned
No need for snarkiness (if you weren't being snarky, I'm sorry for assuming that you were), Stuka1944 was asking a legitimate question. I myself don't think that Nazism could exist without the Anti-Semitism, Anti-Communism and Racism that fueled it. I do believe that if a slightly saner and more pragmatic Hitler was in charge of the Nazi Party, we could've seen a very different solution to the "Jewish Problem." It wouldn't have been genocide, but it wouldn't have been peaches n' cream either. Imagine, for example, if all the raw materials and manpower that went into organizing the holocaust, building the camps, policing them, and exterminating the prisoners had been diverted to the war. And what would Hitler have done with a few thousand extra men (including all the SS guards)? Certainly, they wouldn't have been treated as well as "Aryan" troops, but their contribution to the war effort would've been invaluable. How many more tanks, aircraft, trains, forts and other things could've been built using the materials used to construct Auschwitz? What if Hitler had sprayed all that Zyklon D he used to gas prisoners to devastate Soviet crops? (Or if he'd gassed their troops ala WWI :eek:) Would a hungrier Red Army have been able to win Stalingrad? The least people can do is ask these questions instead of just shrugging them off as being "ASB." Atleast try to imagine what the consequence of a still-racist (but nowhere near as genocidal) Nazi Germany would've been.

The number of soldiers is closer to 100,000 than 1,000. The best that I can tell, delaying the Holocaust until after the victory would have given the Germans about 3% more resources to fight with on the Eastern Front. Call it 6 division or 2 corp. Depending on what is done with these resources, it can have a noticeable effect on the war, but Hitler still loses unless you have another POD such as obtaining the support of Slavs such as the Ukraine. And even this may not be enough.

Now these 6 division would have about the same mix as the German army, so only a few regiments would be motorized/Panzer. Maybe in 1941, Leningrad can be cutoff. Or Maybe with extra supplies, the Germans can advance a bit more into the suburbs of Moscow. Or maybe they sit around in France doing nothing for the most of the war. Hitler was too erratic to make easy predictions for unlike the German leaders of the previous war.

If I had to place a bet and we could know for sure, I would say delaying the Holocaust would extend the war by 6 weeks, and cost the Russians 200,000 more military casualties. And around 10,000,000 civilians would survive the war. I know Hitler killed 11-17 million civilians, but I doubt there was actually enough food to feed them all. Even an less racist Hitler feeds Germans first.
 
I remember their being an alternate history in a Tsouras book where Hitler was an anglo-phobe rather than a anti semite. I think that he is going to hate and fear someone. If he was in the navy and fighting the British, he could develop a hatred of them depending on the situation.

Unless there were other PODs, he would likely turn Operation Sea Lion into the Stalingrad of his campaign. Throwing everything at it and failing to make a beach head. I would be interested in seeing a scenario that would work but it would obviously have to have some PODs.
 
I think 90% of Rise of Narzism could be answered by people watching the following film;

(PG-13 some viewer discretion is advised)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itVaFp-xsQg

After that, then a more rationale discussion may be had being objective rather than appealing to nazi-wank and counter point. Since it at least gives an overview of the history.
 
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