ACW, WWI, WWII

Almost every CSA wins scenerio I come across speculates on what the nations of OTL USA do. I think its very likely that anything resembling the OTL World Wars might be butterflied away. If not, why not? If so, what then?
 
Well, it's hard to predict what will happen fifty to eighty years in the future, but I'm sure there will be large wars in the 20th century with a CSA victory POD, but not the same large wars.
 
Probably a much weaker USA will not have the same impact on European wars as it had OTL.

I assuem after 50 odd years the US ans CSA will have come to terms - and the US probably have forgotten any UK and French "betrayal (Can't see an independent CSA without their help)

So the US and CSA might both be inclined to ignore European affairs - this could mean a better CP performance (I don't think an independent CSA will actually mean much difference for Europe)
 
Almost every CSA wins scenerio I come across speculates on what the nations of OTL USA do. I think its very likely that anything resembling the OTL World Wars might be butterflied away. If not, why not? If so, what then?
has anyone done this besides Turtledove in the TL-191 series? Most of the "CSA wins" scenarios are short stories that don't go into the future much.
Probably a much weaker USA will not have the same impact on European wars as it had OTL.

I assuem after 50 odd years the US ans CSA will have come to terms - and the US probably have forgotten any UK and French "betrayal (Can't see an independent CSA without their help)

So the US and CSA might both be inclined to ignore European affairs - this could mean a better CP performance (I don't think an independent CSA will actually mean much difference for Europe)
I agree. Which is why HT wrote "How Few Remain", because he needed a 'mid-gap' war to keep the hatred going. Without anything like that, yeah, the USA and CSA would probably tend to stay out of the European wars. The USA could still possibly get involved against Japan, if the former still has an interest in the Pacific islands...
 
has anyone done this besides Turtledove in the TL-191 series? Most of the "CSA wins" scenarios are short stories that don't go into the future much.

I agree. Which is why HT wrote "How Few Remain", because he needed a 'mid-gap' war to keep the hatred going. Without anything like that, yeah, the USA and CSA would probably tend to stay out of the European wars. The USA could still possibly get involved against Japan, if the former still has an interest in the Pacific islands...

For one there was "If the South had won the Civil War" by MacKinlay Kantor, where the USA, CSA, and Texas all fight for the Allies in the WWs, even in mixed units IIRC.

I don't know about the World Wars, but I think Turtledove is right about future reations between the USA and CSA, a war almost every generation until one side destroys the other, which almost certainly the USA would come out on top. I don't know about nukes, but you can be sure of many air raids on each other's cities. Imagine looking outside your window up at bombers bearing emblems of the Stars and Stripes, or the Stainless Banner pouing out their "largesse" to you.
 
I would think that USA-CSA relations would look more like US-Mexican relations do today - there was the one war, things changed, and then there are times of tension etc but it never quite breaks out into war again.

Of course that may make for boring timelines! But the USA is going to get over losing the South - it has the whole West to pacify, the Indian Wars, railways to join the coasts, etc.

In "Guns of the South" Turtledove has a defeated USA randomly pick a fight with Britain over Canada, but I can't see why it would.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I would think that USA-CSA relations would look more like US-Mexican relations do today - there was the one war, things changed, and then there are times of tension etc but it never quite breaks out into war again.

Of course that may make for boring timelines! But the USA is going to get over losing the South - it has the whole West to pacify, the Indian Wars, railways to join the coasts, etc.

In "Guns of the South" Turtledove has a defeated USA randomly pick a fight with Britain over Canada, but I can't see why it would.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I think the feeling between the CSA and USA would have been much worse than between the USA and Mexico. The USA would feel it has a much better chance of getting what it lost back than Mexico does, and the CSA would fear it.
 
I assuem after 50 odd years the US ans CSA will have come to terms - and the US probably have forgotten any UK and French "betrayal (Can't see an independent CSA without their help)

I don't really see this bit happening. The prevailing sentiment might be closer to, "We would have beaten those damn rebels if those foreign bastards hadn't gotten involved."

So while the CSA and the USA might not fight again (if only because the reabsorbing the Confederacy would require a lot of time and money that could be better used doing something other than retaking a failed nation) there would be a number of people looking to get revenge on the ones who really beat them. So at the very least when another war breaks out in Europe the U.S. is going to be a lot less willing to sell to the British (as their involvement would have been more likely to swing the war in the CSA's favor. Maybe not to the point of open war between the two, but probably openly supporting and helping whoever they're fighting.
 
I don't really see this bit happening. The prevailing sentiment might be closer to, "We would have beaten those damn rebels if those foreign bastards hadn't gotten involved."

So while the CSA and the USA might not fight again (if only because the reabsorbing the Confederacy would require a lot of time and money that could be better used doing something other than retaking a failed nation) there would be a number of people looking to get revenge on the ones who really beat them. So at the very least when another war breaks out in Europe the U.S. is going to be a lot less willing to sell to the British (as their involvement would have been more likely to swing the war in the CSA's favor. Maybe not to the point of open war between the two, but probably openly supporting and helping whoever they're fighting.

Not so sure after 50 years. Sure nations can hodl a grudge, but common language and common culture (to some extent) will heal wounds.

See prussian and french - long time enemies (18xx-1945) but now are rather close.

A-H vs Prussia - after 1966 the A-H could have cried foul play and "Revanche", but around 1900 both nations were rather close.

I believe it would depend on how the "peace" conditions are - if US and UK will be enemies.
 
Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee had the victorious Confederacy support an alt-Germany in an alt-Great War before siding against them in an alt-Cold War. The U.S. was a semi-independent, disarmed "protectorate" of the South that at least the main character suspected would be the battlefield if Germany and the South went to war.

While it may not start in 1914 and may not play out with exactly the same sides or in any way resembling the unending clusterhump that we got in OTL, I think some form of Great European War is likely to happen between the unification of Germany and the early 20th Century. I would say that though not yet a done deal, Unification was on its way towards happening and would be unlikely to be butterflied away. Once there is a German Empire straddling Middle Europe, the balance of power that kept the peace after Napoleon is gone. Without the balance of power, the great European sport of war is likely to follow.

I can see the U.S. and the C.S. reacting in one of several ways. I would say that my guess would be neutrality for both sides. Unless there was an active desire for revenge on one side, I would imagine that both countries would not want to get into war. Now if either the C.S. felt it owed a debt the Britain or France or the U.S. owed those countries payback for their intervention, I could see just that one country entering. Obviously if they both felt that they "owed" the Entente, then an American Front is possible--though almost certainly without trench warfare outside of sieges of major cities.

I can't say how likely it is, but if Britain and/or France enter the ACW on behalf of the CSA AND the Russians decide to offer something more than moral support to the USA, I can almost see that tempers might calm enough and intertwined alliances be tangled enough for both the North and the South to fight on the same side.
 
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