Is there any way that the Union could win The American Civil war by 1863 and if so what would happen?
ACW won by 1863
- Thread starter Mister Abbadon
- Start date
Well the union could have won the war much earlier than 1863, so it is certainly doable. You could have McClellan push his advantages in the peninsula campaign for a start .
Alternatively if you want it in 1863, I would assume Gettysburg would make a good POD. Maybe have Meade completely finish off Lee after beating him at Gettysburg?
Alternatively if you want it in 1863, I would assume Gettysburg would make a good POD. Maybe have Meade completely finish off Lee after beating him at Gettysburg?
It could have been smashed harder though. A few major battles later might be enough to break it.
Japhy
Banned
And yet at the same time, half of Meade's Corps are wrecked by the end of Day 3 at Gettysburg. He can't hit Lee on July 4th, after that, his ability to operate is damaged by the fact that two of his corps are sent to help save Chattanooga, there's a reason offensive operations were not restarted majorly in the theater until Burnside Returns and the Siege of Charleston sent up enough forces to create the Army of the James.
Anaxagoras
Banned
The first two scenarios for a Union victory in 1863 that pop into my head are having Hooker keep his nerve at Chancellorsville and having Meade successfully counter attack on July 4 at Gettysburg.
Lee's retreat after Anteitham cut off, ANV surrenders or ceases to exist.
Richmond falls by the Spring of 1863
Richmond falls by the Spring of 1863
Lee is in even worse shape on July 4th so he might be able to pull it off. It's not a sure thing but with the right breaks he could pull it off.
And more recently relative to Gettysburg, 9 months men seeing their enlistments expire and several brigades sent to the New York draft ritos.
I wouldn't say the Army of the Potomac is gutted, but the amount its in better shape than the ANV is marginal.
A few lucky breaks won't make up for the fact the margin of strength necessary to do this - or enemy mistakes - just isn't there.
Slydesertfox: Not nearly as unaggressive as he's often painted though. Meade did a pretty good job pursuing Lee OTL.
If it is won before Antitham it will last longer, so you are correct there.
Several ways.
1) Union victory at First Manassas.
At that time the CSA was barely founded, and had minimal institutional inertia. First Manassas appeared to confirm the Fire-Eaters' brag that "Southern gentlemen" could whip any number of pasty-faced Yankees, and gave the CSA several months to form up. If instead the Union wins, with Southerners fleeing in panic - the entire Confederate project might unravel right then.
2) Anyone but McClellan.
McClellan was parachuted in to take over the Army of the Potomac because he had won battles in western Virginia. He was a very good military organizer, which concealed from everyone, including even himself to some degree, that he had no ability whatever as a field general. He was in some ways the worst possible choice, because he failed, while appearing good enough to block any replacement.
But the situation in western Virginia practically guaranteed Union victory. The various Union commands at the start of the war were handed out hastily and could have been different. If that command had gone to even a mediocrity like Buell - he still would be an enormous improvement over McClellan. Or it might have gone to someone fairly competent, like Rosecrans (who did the actual fighting in western Virginia), or to someone good, like "Pap" Thomas. And after First Manassas, that commander would be brought to Washington, and with the huge material advantages of the AotP, would lead it to victory in 1862.
3) Burnside attacks an hour earlier at Antietam.
Burnside was about to overrun the Confederate right and center when Hill showed up. In another half hour, the battle would have been over.
4) Sumner commands the Left Grand Division at Fredericksburg, instead of the Right GD.
Burnside's orders to the Left and Right Grand Divisions were about the same. Sumner, on the right, attacked head-on against the impregnable Marye's Heights position, and was repulsed with heavy losses. Franklin, on the left, attacked with one division - and hit a gap in Jackson's line, which nearly broke.
5) Hooker keeps his nerve at Chancellorsville.
Hooker had Lee outflanked and semi-surrounded. If he had attacked, he and Sedgewick would have crushed Lee's army between them.
Dorozhand
Banned
Lee decides to put logic and principle over emotion and sides with the union. Lincoln sees his talent and appoints him general of AotP. He whips it into shape and executes an aggressive and successful campaign in Virginia. Richmond falls in 1861 and after some campaigning throughout the deep south Lee and Grant meet and force the surrender of the last Confederate remnants in Georgia and Alabama by mid 1862.
I think that the war could have been effectively won by either side in the first two years had things gone differently in the right ways, and that our version of the war was the worst possible scenario, in which neither side got the upper hand early enough and the whole affair dragged on a stalemate.
Had Lee joined with the Union, the CSA is totally crushed by 1863
I think that the war could have been effectively won by either side in the first two years had things gone differently in the right ways, and that our version of the war was the worst possible scenario, in which neither side got the upper hand early enough and the whole affair dragged on a stalemate.
Had Lee joined with the Union, the CSA is totally crushed by 1863
And how is he doing that with three months men and a handful of regulars again?
I like how the steady progress of the Feds in the West is ignored in order to present the situation in Virginia as representing the war effort.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
No, just no. The idea of Lee not wanting to fight his native Virginia wasn't just some oddity at the time, many at the time saw it their duty to be loyal to their state.
Even if by some oddity of history Lee stays in the Union with Virginia seceding there's no way Lincoln would put him in charge of operations there.
But the most likely scenario for a Union Lee is to have Virginia stay in the Union, which is much more do able and in fact would take care of the OP. If Virginia stays in the Union the war is won before it even begins. Victory in 1863.
Many didn't - George Thomas and John Gibbon to name two examples off the bat.
I seem to recall reading that more Southern officers stayed loyal than didn't, but I'd have to check that.
Why not?