ACW with Union Army racially integrated ?

OK, hope this doesn't sound ASB, but is there any way the ACW could've eventuated to the extent of whites and blacks being integrated into the same combat regts (not just OTL brigading of black & white combat units together) ? Perhaps an even greater loss rate of able-bodied white northern males which compels the Army to put in blacks and whites in the same regts tog- just as occurred during the Korean War with the replacements shortage ? What effect on race relations etc ? Of course, many northern whites at the outset of the war saw blacks as inferiors and inherently unequal as much as white Southerners did, but as the war progressed, the majority started to change their minds bout the fighting capability and humanity of the black man due to such heroic events as Fort Wagner- how much more so if the Union army had blacks and whites fight and die side-by-side in the same units ?
 
OK, hope this doesn't sound ASB, but is there any way the ACW could've eventuated to the extent of whites and blacks being integrated into the same combat regts (not just OTL brigading of black & white combat units together) ? Perhaps an even greater loss rate of able-bodied white northern males which compels the Army to put in blacks and whites in the same regts tog- just as occurred during the Korean War with the replacements shortage ? What effect on race relations etc ? Of course, many northern whites at the outset of the war saw blacks as inferiors and inherently unequal as much as white Southerners did, but as the war progressed, the majority started to change their minds bout the fighting capability and humanity of the black man due to such heroic events as Fort Wagner- how much more so if the Union army had blacks and whites fight and die side-by-side in the same units ?

I don't really see it happening and working very well. The racial climate at the time wouldn't allow it. Even if some politicians decided to integrate the armed forces (which is unlikely) the military would rebel. Also gives the south great propaganda; "Look at those Yankees. They want us to treat their Negroes like they're white, just like they do!"
 
I don't really see it happening and working very well. The racial climate at the time wouldn't allow it. Even if some politicians decided to integrate the armed forces (which is unlikely) the military would rebel. Also gives the south great propaganda; "Look at those Yankees. They want us to treat their Negroes like they're white, just like they do!"

That is in some respects quite hypocritical of southern whites, given that there is evidence that the CS actually had some (how many is always a qn of conjecture) blacks who took up arms and fought side-by-side with white comrades in Confederate regts.
 

The Sandman

Banned
That is in some respects quite hypocritical of southern whites, given that there is evidence that the CS actually had some (how many is always a qn of conjecture) blacks who took up arms and fought side-by-side with white comrades in Confederate regts.

Wait, you mean that in this scenario southern whites might have expressed hypocritical attitudes about something related to blacks in the period before the 1960s? :eek: My god, that's almost as implausible as a successful Sea Lion!
 
That is in some respects quite hypocritical of southern whites, given that there is evidence that the CS actually had some (how many is always a qn of conjecture) blacks who took up arms and fought side-by-side with white comrades in Confederate regts.

Yes, but that's not a nationally supported system. There's a big difference between isolated incidents of something occurring, and the government specifically ordering something to happen.
 
Yes, but that's not a nationally supported system. There's a big difference between isolated incidents of something occurring, and the government specifically ordering something to happen.

Interestingly enough, when the Confederates did pass their black recruitment bill, the Confederate War Department issued regulations (General Order 14, March 23, 1865) which would have ensured that blacks and whites fought together in the same regiments. Had the war continued for a while longer than it did, you might have actually seen integrated Confederate regiments in combat against segregated Union Colored Regiments. Just one of the many ironies of that conflict.
 
Interestingly enough, when the Confederates did pass their black recruitment bill, the Confederate War Department issued regulations (General Order 14, March 23, 1865) which would have ensured that blacks and whites fought together in the same regiments. Had the war continued for a while longer than it did, you might have actually seen integrated Confederate regiments in combat against segregated Union Colored Regiments. Just one of the many ironies of that conflict.
Makes sense that the CSA would want to keep their units integrated considering their circumstances; I'd imagine an all-black unit might have had some reliability issues, while smaller numbers of black soldiers spread through existing units would not have been so problematic.
 
Interestingly enough, when the Confederates did pass their black recruitment bill, the Confederate War Department issued regulations (General Order 14, March 23, 1865) which would have ensured that blacks and whites fought together in the same regiments. Had the war continued for a while longer than it did, you might have actually seen integrated Confederate regiments in combat against segregated Union Colored Regiments. Just one of the many ironies of that conflict.

The thing is, though, it couldn't have lasted longer than it did. By that time, Sherman had long since reached the Atlantic and split the rebel states in two. Lee was only one or two weeks away from surrendering. The CSA was in its death throes, and General Order 14 was made entirely out of desperation, too late for it to have any effect.

Had the situation not been so desperate (ie, an earlier POD results in a stronger rebel position), there's no way General Order 14 would've passed earlier on. Consider the fact that Cleburne supported African Americans in the rebel army, but he was told, flat out, that it wasn't going to happen.

Is there text of General Order 14 floating around? I looked it up (never heard of it before), but could only find references to it.
 
I don't really see it happening and working very well. The racial climate at the time wouldn't allow it. Even if some politicians decided to integrate the armed forces (which is unlikely) the military would rebel. Also gives the south great propaganda; "Look at those Yankees. They want us to treat their Negroes like they're white, just like they do!"

The military might complain endlessly and there would probably be desertions and violence against black soldiers, but a full-blown military mutiny?
 
The military might complain endlessly and there would probably be desertions and violence against black soldiers, but a full-blown military mutiny?

I didn't mean it that way. :p

I meant more like certain generals flat out refusing. The north never had huge manpower shortages, at least not the same way the south did, and integration was unnecessary from a military standpoint. Grant might allow it (one of his few successes as president was his civil rights policy), but others would certainly oppose it. Stanton, the secretary of war, was a Democrat; I don't know his particular racial views, but the democrats weren't exactly known at the time as civil rights reformers. Sherman, later in the war, was an abolitionist, but certainly didn't support an integrated army, and didn't believe in racial equality.

What you'd see is possibly a de jure integrated army, but not de facto.
 
Makes sense that the CSA would want to keep their units integrated considering their circumstances; I'd imagine an all-black unit might have had some reliability issues, while smaller numbers of black soldiers spread through existing units would not have been so problematic.

That was certainly part of it, I am sure. But the Confederates also had a long-standing policy with regard to using new recruits to rebuild the strength of existing regiments rather than forming new regiments with them. This was in contrast to the standard Union practice, which they followed because Regimental commands were choice plumbs which State Governors sought to hand out as political appointments, which was to allow existing regiments to wither away until too small to continue as an effective unit, then break them up and distribute the men among newer units. Meanwhile, they used new recruits to create new regiments...and new Colonels appointments which could be given to political favorites by the State Governors...rather than rebuilding the existing regiments. The Confederate policy made Confederate units more combat effective, generally, than equivalent Union units, as it preserved their veteran character and esprit de corps. So, quite aside from the loyalty considerations, it was natural that the Confederates should decide to continue this already existing policy, which was working well for them.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Makes sense that the CSA would want to keep their units integrated considering their circumstances; I'd imagine an all-black unit might have had some reliability issues, while smaller numbers of black soldiers spread through existing units would not have been so problematic.

It was just an acceptance of the status quo. There were a lot of colored troops in CSA regiments (maybe 10%) and it worked fine.
 
The thing is, though, it couldn't have lasted longer than it did. By that time, Sherman had long since reached the Atlantic and split the rebel states in two. Lee was only one or two weeks away from surrendering. The CSA was in its death throes, and General Order 14 was made entirely out of desperation, too late for it to have any effect.

I agree that the black recruitment law was passed too late to have any effect. That is obvious from OTL.

Had the situation not been so desperate (ie, an earlier POD results in a stronger rebel position), there's no way General Order 14 would've passed earlier on. Consider the fact that Cleburne supported African Americans in the rebel army, but he was told, flat out, that it wasn't going to happen.

It is true that the black recruitment law of March 13, 1865 was passed out of "desperation" (or, to put it another way, military necessity). Of course, we must remember that the Emancipation Proclamation and the laws which allowed the Union to recruit black soldiers were issued under similar pressures. The North was perceived internationally, at the time, as losing the war, and Britain was considering recognizing the South as a result. So basically both sides reached out to the black population when they felt it militarily necessary to do so...the South just took longer to arrive at that decision.

General Order 14, however, was a War Department regulation to govern the recruitment and use of black troops, not the actual legislation authorizing their use. General Order 14 actually conformed to long-standing Confederate policy with regard to the use of new recruits to rebuild existing units, rather than forming new regiments with them.

Is there text of General Order 14 floating around? I looked it up (never heard of it before), but could only find references to it.

I don't know if it is online anywhere. It is reprinted in full in Lonnie Durden, THE GRAY AND THE BLACK: THE CONFEDERATE DEBATE ON EMANCIPATION, Louisiana State University Press: 1972. This is an excellent book consisting mostly of reprints of original documents...newspaper editorials, legislation, War Department General Orders, political speeches, etc., relating to this issue.
 
It was just an acceptance of the status quo. There were a lot of colored troops in CSA regiments (maybe 10%) and it worked fine.

It is amazing that the Confederate Congress was so worked up about the idea of Colored troops given this fact, isn't it?
 
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