ACW Starts a global war

CSA and US are drawn in as allies.

That is ridicoulous. Not matter what TL, the CSA and the USA are never going to ally. The whole of the the civil war from the souths point of view was to break connections with the union. Give me a non ASB scenario that the CSA and USA ally.
 
That is ridicoulous. Not matter what TL, the CSA and the USA are never going to ally. The whole of the the civil war from the souths point of view was to break connections with the union. Give me a non ASB scenario that the CSA and USA ally.


How is it ridiculous?

people always like to think that if the CSA won the ACW a "Cold War" situation would've developed on North America, but I've never understood why.

Both the CSA and USA speak the same language, have similar cultures (Except the whole slavery thing), and have a common ancestry.

If both nations were forced to face a "greater threat" I see no reason why they wouldn't get past their differences and team up.
 
That is ridicoulous. Not matter what TL, the CSA and the USA are never going to ally. The whole of the the civil war from the souths point of view was to break connections with the union. Give me a non ASB scenario that the CSA and USA ally.

I know it's about as ASB as the US and Britain becoming allies :eek::D
 
Except that the UK and the USA have had a largely similar ideologies and relatively few areas of mutual interest which might lead to conflict. Britain by this period was always more occupied elsewhere than in the Western Hemisphere so unless the USA acted to overtly expel her from the continent she was unlikely to go to war.

If the South ditches slavery and both states come to some agreement with regards to who gets what in the west and who has influence in which parts of Latin America and so on then conflict can be avoided. Such will be far more difficult for these two Americas however since they are likely to be bitter rivals and shall be tempted to establish Empires. Then you have the constant concern over invasion (lets be honest, Canada was never likely to invade the USA) and thus large standing armies. All that shall lead to considerably more mistrust than existed between Britain and the USA. Doesn't mean they have to fight again and again and doesn't mean they couldn't ally to keep other powers colonizing powers out of South America, but it does mean a happy relationship is unlikely.
 
Coalitions in the First World War, Circa Early 1862

O.K assuming the P.O.D is the Trent Affair here's how the sides might line up and why they might fight.


Confederate allies and co-beligerants ( Grand Coalition)

1. Confederate States of America

2. British Empire- Declares war against the USA in Feb 1862 as a result of a more beligerant U.S response to the the Trent Affair, The Confederacy is recognised, the Royal Navy is dispatched to break the blockade and defeat the the U.S Navy at sea. 20,000 British troops are dispatched to Canada, and Canadian Militia is called up. *Note* Although there is some resistance amongst the British as to being allied to the slaveholding Confederacy, it is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that The U.S also has slave states, and that emancipation is not a Northern war aim at the time Britain enters the war.

Fr-Joins the British in recognition of the Confederacy and in declaring war on the U.S after both nations agree to support (or at least condone)French occupation of Mexico. The French enter the war on April 18th, 1862 and dispatch a fleet to the Gulf of Mexico, to establish contact with the Confederacy and support its Mexican operations, 5000 French Marines are also landed at New Orleans to assist in it's defense as it will serve as the main French naval base.

Spanish Empire- Joins in May 1862 as an ally of France, supports the Confederacy as sympathetic to the Amistad affair claims against the U.S. deploys forces and ships to defend commerce with Cuba.

U.S Allies and Co-Beligerants- (Grand Alliance)

United States of America

1. Mexico (Juarez) Lincoln supports the Juarez government per the Monroe Doctrine and Mexico already at war with France, Declares war on Britain and eventually Spain

2. Russian Empire- Sore from the Crimean war and friendly to the Union the Czar declares his support for the Union Cause and declares war against Britain, France, and Spain in May 1862 Russian troops reinforce Alaska and a Russian Fleet patrols North American waters.


That's my theory for the initial grouping, I'm working on a timeline where other major players will join in to make a wider war.
 
O.K assuming the P.O.D is the Trent Affair here's how the sides might line up and why they might fight.


Confederate allies and co-beligerants ( Grand Coalition)

1. Confederate States of America

2. British Empire- Declares war against the USA in Feb 1862 as a result of a more beligerant U.S response to the the Trent Affair, The Confederacy is recognised, the Royal Navy is dispatched to break the blockade and defeat the the U.S Navy at sea. 20,000 British troops are dispatched to Canada, and Canadian Militia is called up. *Note* Although there is some resistance amongst the British as to being allied to the slaveholding Confederacy, it is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that The U.S also has slave states, and that emancipation is not a Northern war aim at the time Britain enters the war.

Fr-Joins the British in recognition of the Confederacy and in declaring war on the U.S after both nations agree to support (or at least condone)French occupation of Mexico. The French enter the war on April 18th, 1862 and dispatch a fleet to the Gulf of Mexico, to establish contact with the Confederacy and support its Mexican operations, 5000 French Marines are also landed at New Orleans to assist in it's defense as it will serve as the main French naval base.

Spanish Empire- Joins in May 1862 as an ally of France, supports the Confederacy as sympathetic to the Amistad affair claims against the U.S. deploys forces and ships to defend commerce with Cuba.

U.S Allies and Co-Beligerants- (Grand Alliance)

United States of America

1. Mexico (Juarez) Lincoln supports the Juarez government per the Monroe Doctrine and Mexico already at war with France, Declares war on Britain and eventually Spain

2. Russian Empire- Sore from the Crimean war and friendly to the Union the Czar declares his support for the Union Cause and declares war against Britain, France, and Spain in May 1862 Russian troops reinforce Alaska and a Russian Fleet patrols North American waters.


That's my theory for the initial grouping, I'm working on a timeline where other major players will join in to make a wider war.

Add the possibility of NO or LATER Crimean War to the TL and a situation like the one in "Astonishing the world" (a massive Polish uprising drives Austria on the side of Russia, with Prussia going either way). Then there are German states fighting each other, Italy jumping in against Austria, the Ottoman Empire against Russia, and Serbia, Montenegro, Rumania and Bulgarian rebels fighting the Turks in the Balkans...
 

67th Tigers

Banned
2. Russian Empire- Sore from the Crimean war and friendly to the Union the Czar declares his support for the Union Cause and declares war against Britain, France, and Spain in May 1862 Russian troops reinforce Alaska and a Russian Fleet patrols North American waters.


That's my theory for the initial grouping, I'm working on a timeline where other major players will join in to make a wider war.

20,000 British Troops? OTL That was the advanced party to hold any (snowbound) US invasion force until the thaw.

Anyway, any idea of a Russian offensive via Alaska is pretty ludicrous. There is no way of supporting even comparitively minor forces in that region, let alone one of their 8 Army Corps (which are very large bodies the size of a US Army). OTL 4 of their 8 Corps were used against the Anglo-Franco-Turkish Army in 1854-6, the remainder being required to block any possible amphibious desant in the Baltic.

The real threat from Russia is against British India (and the French Levant), which will primarily be played out in Persia, Mesopotamia and Afghanistan.

The Russian "Fleet" is exceptionally small, and is just meat for the RN grinder. They were OTL completely unable to prevent the RN acting at will in the Baltic.
 
Russia in Alaska

"Anyway, any idea of a Russian offensive via Alaska is pretty ludicrous. There is no way of supporting even comparitively minor forces in that region, let alone one of their 8 Army Corps (which are very large bodies the size of a US Army). OTL 4 of their 8 Corps were used against the Anglo-Franco-Turkish Army in 1854-6, the remainder being required to block any possible amphibious desant in the Baltic."

"The real threat from Russia is against British India (and the French Levant), which will primarily be played out in Persia, Mesopotamia and Afghanistan."

"The Russian "Fleet" is exceptionally small, and is just meat for the RN grinder. They were OTL completely unable to prevent the RN acting at will in the Baltic."


Right, I agree entirely that Russia would be unable to mount an offensive into Canada from Alaska, I was thinking that they would send reinforcements merely to attempt to hold it pending a British/Canadian offensive.

The Russian Fleet may not amount to much but they could potentially cause a few headaches for the RN since they now have allied ports of call in the U.S and Juarez controlled Mexico
 
"Anyway, any idea of a Russian offensive via Alaska is pretty ludicrous. There is no way of supporting even comparitively minor forces in that region, let alone one of their 8 Army Corps (which are very large bodies the size of a US Army). OTL 4 of their 8 Corps were used against the Anglo-Franco-Turkish Army in 1854-6, the remainder being required to block any possible amphibious desant in the Baltic."

"The real threat from Russia is against British India (and the French Levant), which will primarily be played out in Persia, Mesopotamia and Afghanistan."

"The Russian "Fleet" is exceptionally small, and is just meat for the RN grinder. They were OTL completely unable to prevent the RN acting at will in the Baltic."


Right, I agree entirely that Russia would be unable to mount an offensive into Canada from Alaska, I was thinking that they would send reinforcements merely to attempt to hold it pending a British/Canadian offensive.

The Russian Fleet may not amount to much but they could potentially cause a few headaches for the RN since they now have allied ports of call in the U.S and Juarez controlled Mexico

Jason

I agree that the Russian fleet will pose an extra problem for the allies but not a major one. Presuming the Crimean War there isn't one, by treaty, in the Black Sea. [If no Crimean War, any such fleet has still got to get past the straits, then through the British controlled Med to reach the open sea]. The Pacific and Arctic squadrons are minisucal and lacking logistical support. The Baltic fleet might be more of a threat but its still a lot smaller than the British fleet. Furthermore it has to get past the entrance to the Baltic, a natural choke-point, then the British Isles themselves. Furthermore, while the Russians might somehow be drawn into a wider war, would the Czar be willing to send his fleet on what would almost certainly be a suicide mission or would he keep it back to defend against British pressure in the Baltic. [A fleet in being mission].

The main threat, presuming the Ottomans weren't drawn into the conflict, or an expansion into central Europe, is probably as Tigers suggests via Persia. However think they are going to have a hell of a job maintaining an army in Persia, at least beyond the Caspian coast, let alone anywhere to threaten India.

I think the big problem is that Britain and Russia are to a degree the classic whale and elephant situation. Barring any areas bordering Russia where the two can fight each other there is very little militarily that the two can interact. Furthermore, given Russia's limited maritime position and Britain's naval superiority there is no real way Russia could intervene in a conflict in N America. It would have immense problems reinforcing its isolated colony in Alaska, all the way through Siberia and then across the northern Pacific so I would expect that to fall to Britain fairly quickly.

Steve
 
20,000 British Troops? OTL That was the advanced party to hold any (snowbound) US invasion force until the thaw.

Anyway, any idea of a Russian offensive via Alaska is pretty ludicrous. There is no way of supporting even comparitively minor forces in that region, let alone one of their 8 Army Corps (which are very large bodies the size of a US Army). OTL 4 of their 8 Corps were used against the Anglo-Franco-Turkish Army in 1854-6, the remainder being required to block any possible amphibious desant in the Baltic.

The real threat from Russia is against British India (and the French Levant), which will primarily be played out in Persia, Mesopotamia and Afghanistan.

The Russian "Fleet" is exceptionally small, and is just meat for the RN grinder. They were OTL completely unable to prevent the RN acting at will in the Baltic.

Tigers

Think the Russians are going to have problems supporting forces in Persia beyond the Caspian coast, even without expected Persian opposition. Welcome to try threatening India through Afghanistan as a great way to bled them dry and gives the Indian army some exercise. Don't know how happy the Ottomans would be with a 'French Levant'.;) They will definitely get drawn into the mix in any conflict in Mesopotamia.

Steve
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Tigers

Think the Russians are going to have problems supporting forces in Persia beyond the Caspian coast, even without expected Persian opposition. Welcome to try threatening India through Afghanistan as a great way to bled them dry and gives the Indian army some exercise. Don't know how happy the Ottomans would be with a 'French Levant'.;) They will definitely get drawn into the mix in any conflict in Mesopotamia.

Steve

On Anglo-Russian conflict of the time, in the Joint Staff College podcats, I'd recommend Prof Neilson's "Russia in British Strategic Foreign Policy, 1860-1941". He's a couple of others and they're all good, he was head of faculty at the Stone Frigate ISTR.
 
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