ACH: the derailed Roman republic

[Berserker]

The Civil war between the Roman generals made way for Octavian and his succesors. it hade som major players and unfortunate victims, like all wars.

I am searching for ways to make the Civil war period (from the Rubicon until the death of Marcus Antonius) more derailing and devastating, with some predetermined events and results. blame me iff it is ASB

1: Caesar must die in Gaul
2: Pompey must be assasinated
3: Crassus must survive
4: as much difficulty as you can get between the different "Factions" in roman politics.

one result (iff possible) could be:
Sextus and Gnaeus Pompey must flee towards the east, possibly building a powerhouse for future events. double iff it is Sextus who manages to get a relationship with Cleopatra.

thanks in advance

 

[euromellows]

I was just reading Suetonious' "12 Caesars" on Caesar himself. He stated that Caesar's final campaign against Pompey's sons was a near run thing and that he (Caesar) contemplated suicide. It strikes me as an opportune time to create chaos, especially considering that most of the other big players were already dead by this stage and that the majority of Rome (optimates included) had willingly or not come over to Caesar.

 

[Arachnid]

I was just reading Suetonious' "12 Caesars" on Caesar himself. He stated that Caesar's final campaign against Pompey's sons was a near run thing and that he (Caesar) contemplated suicide. It strikes me as an opportune time to create chaos, especially considering that most of the other big players were already dead by this stage and that the majority of Rome (optimates included) had willingly or not come over to Caesar.

That's just plain wrong, post the death of Pompey and until his assassination Caesar was in no real trouble, the war in North African and the second Hispanian campaign's were largely walkover's though of course he could have fallen from his horse and broken his neck at any point.

 

[kclcmdr]

Having Crassus somehow winning at his Parthian Campaign either by guile or a little dis-information spread within the Parthia Monarchy that incited regicide among the King and his 'loyal' generals and sons would be intriguing..

Tho what will he have gain.... land ?? Gold & Silver ?

 

[Archdevil]

He wanted glory, and thus a larger political role in Rome.

He was already the richest man in Rome.

His attack on the Parthian Empire was privately financed and basically robbery on a massive scale.

 

[Grouchio]

What if one of these civil wars led to the permanent fragmentation of the Roman Republic, so that all provinces except for Italia declare independance?

 

[Arachnid]

What if one of these civil wars led to the permanent fragmentation of the Roman Republic, so that all provinces except for Italia declare independance?

well you had the Sertorian War where a rogue Marian general called Quintus Sertorius tried just that after Sulla's victory in the 1st Civil War. Quintus Sertorius took over Spain and tried to set up a independent Republic modelled on Rome. Suffice to say it didn't work out all that well, not least because Rome still had the Legions while Sertorius had 2nd rate copies.

 

[Xgentis]

If the Gauls kill Caesar during his invasion what would happend?

 

[Arachnid]

If the Gauls kill Caesar during his invasion what would happend?

Someone else would have ended the Republic though the precise nature of the following government would have been different. The Republic was a deeply unstable and unsustainable polity that had completely failed to adapt the system of government and political attitudes which served it well as a small city state in Latium into the ruler of the Mediterranean. Post the Gracchi the Roman Republic was basically an endless round of internal crises and military expansions, the two being symbiotically linked as the best way for a Roman aristocrat to win his internal battles was to loot and plunder some other country, thus providing him, legions, cash and a military reputation.

 

[euromellows]

That's just plain wrong, post the death of Pompey and until his assassination Caesar was in no real trouble, the war in North African and the second Hispanian campaign's were largely walkover's though of course he could have fallen from his horse and broken his neck at any point.

"Throughout the civil war Caesar was never defeated himself, but, of his legates, Gaius Curio died in Africa, Gaius Antonious was captured in Illyricum, Publius Dolabella lost a fleet also off Illyricum, and Gnaeus Domitius Calvinus had his army destroyed in Pontus. Yet, although invariably successful, he twice came close to disaster: at Dyrrhachium, where Pompey broke his blockade and forced him to retreat - Caesar remarked when Pompey failed to pursue him, 'He does not know how to win wars' - and in the final battle in Spain, where all seemed lost and he even considered suicide" - Suetonious, The Twelve Caesars, Divus Julius .36

 

[Berserker]

well you had the Sertorian War where a rogue Marian general called Quintus Sertorius tried just that after Sulla's victory in the 1st Civil War. Quintus Sertorius took over Spain and tried to set up a independent Republic modelled on Rome. Suffice to say it didn't work out all that well, not least because Rome still had the Legions while Sertorius had 2nd rate copies.

that would certainly be a part of it, although I havent foudn a clear succesor of his actions iff he dies

Someone else would have ended the Republic though the precise nature of the following government would have been different. The Republic was a deeply unstable and unsustainable polity that had completely failed to adapt the system of government and political attitudes which served it well as a small city state in Latium into the ruler of the Mediterranean. Post the Gracchi the Roman Republic was basically an endless round of internal crises and military expansions, the two being symbiotically linked as the best way for a Roman aristocrat to win his internal battles was to loot and plunder some other country, thus providing him, legions, cash and a military reputation

who are the most likely candidates??

I am not very well known in Roman politics, so who could do the trick?: Pompey, Crassus, Cato, Cicero, Sextus, Marcus Antonius...who could do the trick iff caesar dies in gaul..en eventualy Pompey is murdered?

 

[Arachnid]

that would certainly be a part of it, although I havent foudn a clear succesor of his actions iff he dies

That was the whole point, it was a one man band with no backup and as soon as Sertorious died it was over.

who are the most likely candidates??

I am not very well known in Roman politics, so who could do the trick?: Pompey, Crassus, Cato, Cicero, Sextus, Marcus Antonius...who could do the trick iff caesar dies in gaul..en eventualy Pompey is murdered?

Pompey=.................No, he had the chance but he lacked the ambition, the ruthlessness and most of all the blood (he was a Picentine not a Roman of the Romans and no one let him forget it).
Crassus=.................Crap General as Carrhae proved.
Cato=.....................Staunch Republican and not a General.
Cicero=...................Republican and completely militarily incompetent.
Sextus (Pompey?)=...Assuming you mean Sextus Pompey then he's a possibility, we don't know as much about his character as we do about his father but he was ambitious and ruthless.
Marcus Antonius=.....As his career post Caesar showed he was militarily good but not great and was a crap politician, but he did have the ambition and lack of respect for constitutional niceties so he's a possibility.

I'd add to that list Gaius Cassius Longinus despite his rumoured strong Republican sympathies he was a skilled and ambitious commander. Also Decimus Junius Brutus Albinus another skilled and ambitious commander. As you can see there are lots of candidates though none as skilled a General as Julius Caesar or as skilled a politician as Octavian (future Augustus) who is still going to be around. In the absence of Julius Caesar it's likely that the Republic will stagger on for a bit longer but sooner or later someone will come along with the right balance of military and political skill and personal ambition.

 

[Berserker]

I ideed ment Sextus Pompey

and to all of you, thanks for helping me out with this. now I can continue writing with more then just ideas about possible roman chaos

 

[Arachnid]

Just remember that by 70 B.C. the Republic was an unlocked door just waiting for someone to try the handle. You can move the timing forward or back but the Republic as it stood was doomed. It could be replaced by another more stable Republican government as Sulla had tried to do or more likely by an Imperial regime but the status quo was unsustainable.