ACH: Cordoban colonies in the New World

Your challenge is to create a scenario in which not only does the Caliphate of Cordoba survive to this day, covering most of Iberia, but it also establishes colonies in the New World and takes part in the Age of Exploration. How does this happen? What effect does this have? Will the Cordobans behave as badly as the Spaniards did? Discuss.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Start with a Norman Sicily not willing to give up Tunisia, leading to an Early Almorahad disinterest with the eastern Maghreb, choosing to focus primarily on Iberia, with a strong garrison around Marrakesh. With greater cooperation with the existing Arabo-Spanish Taifa nobility, a capable Almorahad leader could cement power and begin to re-centralize the state, easily defending everything south of the Tajos River, and more often than not controlling most up to the Duero and Ebro Rivers. The Asturian kingdoms of Galicia, Leon, and Castille (as a stunted Portugal would have been absorbed by Galicia), as well as the Catalonians in Aragorn would still be in the throes of the Reconquista, though the Basques of Navarre may be a possible friend of the Muslim state. Continue solid leadership with continued revenue from Northern Africa (perhaps even a reconquered Tunisia as the Sicilians began to loose footing) And the Almorhads could see the growth of a profitable Mediterranean trade empire, giving Genoa competition for the markets of Provence and various Italian city states.

With Cordoba being a continued place of knowledge and education with a keen mercantile interest, Sevilla could become a center of navigation, with the Moors making ventures such as the Canary Islands and the Azores. They could reach India by 1300 and probably hit North America within a century.
 
This is the premise if the timeline I started, which is in my signature. The POD was that Hisham II is a little bit more savvy about what is going on with his vizier taking way to much power due to him being the age of 10 upon ascent to the throne. He turns the balance of power back towards the caliph, stopping the shift of power to the advisors. This lack of central authority lead the breakup of the Caliphate.

Survival would definitely benefit earlier exploration since Cordóba was a center of learning. I would say they would for sure found some colonies in the New World.
 
I think if any, an Almohad or a Cordoban state would not be like the Conquistadors. They are very tolerant, with Christians and Jews flourishing side by side with Muslims.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Except they are only so because they are people's of the book. That will definitely not be the case once you see they reach America, whose religion falls outside those three.
 
I think if any, an Almohad or a Cordoban state would not be like the Conquistadors. They are very tolerant, with Christians and Jews flourishing side by side with Muslims.
Not really. They launched pogroms of the Jews too and I think they actually started doing so before the Christian Spaniards did.

Islam is also even more anti-pagan than Christianity.
 
Except they are only so because they are people's of the book. That will definitely not be the case once you see they reach America, whose religion falls outside those three.

Didn't Hinduism far under those lines when the Muslims conquered India? And the Muslims eventually included them as People of the Book as a matter of practicality? The same can be said for Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and Buddhists when those populations fell under Islamic rule.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Didn't Hinduism far under those lines when the Muslims conquered India? And the Muslims eventually included them as People of the Book as a matter of practicality? The same can be said for Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and Buddhists when those populations fell under Islamic rule.

Maybe something similar to avoid any sort of religious uprising, but I bet they wouldn't have many rights outside of their lands, in other Arab stats. The title and rights of "Dhummi" only applied to non-Muslim Abrahamic faiths, and even then they had to pay a poll tax and couldn't run for civil office.
 
Didn't Hinduism far under those lines when the Muslims conquered India? And the Muslims eventually included them as People of the Book as a matter of practicality? The same can be said for Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and Buddhists when those populations fell under Islamic rule.
They were surrounded by powerful Hindu enemies.

The Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem tolerated Muslims to about the same level as the Muslims tolerated other religious groups particularly the Abrahamic faiths. Druze were appreciated. Yet we all know how tolerant the OTL Catholic conquerors of the New World were despite living three centuries later.
 
They were surrounded by powerful Hindu enemies.

After the ninth century, many of the Hindu rajputs were conquered or had converted into Islam following the Islamic conquests of the Punjab and Ganges river valley during the 9th century. There wasn't much significant resistance after that. So powerful Hindu enemies was not a factor.

The Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem tolerated Muslims to about the same level as the Muslims tolerated other religious groups particularly the Abrahamic faiths. Druze were appreciated. Yet we all know how tolerant the OTL Catholic conquerors of the New World were.

Quite the contrary. The Crusaders slaughtered Muslim populations like barbarians and treated the local Eastern Christians like crap. And they were eventually extinguished. Poor example.
 
After the ninth century, many of the Hindu rajputs were conquered or had converted into Islam following the Islamic conquests of the Punjab and Ganges river valley during the 9th century. There wasn't much significant resistance after that. So powerful Hindu enemies was not a factor.

Quite the contrary. The Crusaders slaughtered Muslim populations like barbarians and treated the local Eastern Christians like crap. And they were eventually extinguished. Poor example.
When Muslims conquered, they were just as brutal. I meant Jerusalem during times of peace.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Then how did the many religious polities of India and Central Asia became recognized as "peoples of the book?" Cause your statement, although possibly true, still confuses me.
 
When Muslims conquered, they were just as brutal. I meant Jerusalem during times of peace.

The big difference is that the Muslims would discourage conversion amongst the natives to maintain a high amount of revenue collected from the jizya. The conquistadors went out and encouraged conversion, more often than not at the point of the sword. The Muslims would probably be content in them paying a tribute tax and that would be the end of that.
 
The big difference is that the Muslims would discourage conversion amongst the natives to maintain a high amount of revenue collected from the jizya. The conquistadors went out and encouraged conversion, more often than not at the point of the sword. The Muslims would probably be content in them paying a tribute tax and that would be the end of that.
They only discouraged conversion in areas that were wealthier or more advanced than Arab centers. In areas less advanced, like Iberia, Somalia, and inland North Africa, they definitely encouraged it.

Also, Hinduism can be portrayed as monotheistic while the belief systems of many native American societies would be called 'shirk' by Muslim 'conquistadors'. Indians also had advanced steel weapons; native Americans may have had complex cities but the majority of weapons were made of simpler materials.

Slavery was also even more common in al-Andalus than in Christian Spain even though it was present in both. Qurtuban conquerors would still enslave once they discover the gold and silver.
 
They only discouraged conversion in areas that were wealthier or more advanced than Arab centers. In areas less advanced, like Iberia, Somalia, and inland North Africa, they definitely encouraged it.

The Islamization of North Africa was assisted by the migration of tribal confederacies from the Arabian peninsula. Asides from the Berbers, it was an extremely gradual process and conversion to Islam amongst the native urban North African population went slowly, at least until more fundamentalist dynasties of the Almohads and Almoravids came around and even then Islamization wasn't complete until sometime around the 1400s.

Hinduism was only seen as such by a combination of sympathetic native Indian Muslim clerics "seeing the presence of Allah" in the Hindu deities as well as realizing that it was preferable making money off them than simply converting them for the sake of conversion.

Slavery was also even more common in al-Andalus than in Christian Spain even though it was present in both. Qurtuban 'conquistadors' would still enslave once they discover the gold and silver.

And from what we know in OTL, Native Americans make piss poor slaves. The Spanish ended up realizing that and turned to importing Africans.
 
The Islamization of North Africa was assisted by the migration of tribal confederacies from the Arabian peninsula. Asides from the Berbers, it was an extremely gradual process and conversion to Islam amongst the native urban North African population went slowly, at least until more fundamentalist dynasties of the Almohads and Almoravids came around and even then Islamization wasn't complete until sometime around the 1400s.

Hinduism was only seen as such by a combination of sympathetic native Indian Muslim clerics "seeing the presence of Allah" in the Hindu deities as well as realizing that it was preferable making money off them than simply converting them for the sake of conversion.
The Americas are a bit too far to resettle Arabian and North African tribes to.

And there wouldn't be too many native American Muslim clerics to try and protect their cultural brethren as dhimmi.

Plus if the conquest of the Americas by the Andalusians has the slightest religious context whatsoever (even if the main drive is precious resources, like OTL), the majority of the soldiers will be ghazis (they are after all risking their lives for their faith).

And from what we know in OTL, Native Americans make piss poor slaves. The Spanish ended up realizing that and turned to importing Africans.
Just like the Spanish, the Cordobans wouldn't realize that until all their slaves started dying of old world diseases. Then they would bring over African slaves, having even easier access to them than the Spanish and Portuguese.
 
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