Aaron Burr's Southwestern Empire?

Are you interested in a timeline involving VP Aaron Burr & a "Southwestern Empire"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 36 92.3%
  • No

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • Total voters
    39
While in my US History AP class this afternoon, I cam across an interesting event that happened exactly 202 years ago today. I read that Vice President Aaron Burr & the incident where he was acquitted of being not guilty for treason against the United States in 1807. This scenario intrigued me about the possibility of an independent nation in the OTL southwest US & northern Mexico. Apparently he had conspired with James Wilkinson, who was commander-in-chief of the US Army, to annex parts of the Louisiana territory & Spanish territory in Mexico to create an independent republic/"southwestern empire".

The question is what is the plausibility, involving the right POD, for Burr's ambition to create a "southwestern empire" to come to fruition? How would the United States and Spain react to the establishment of a new republic?

And the question for the poll is, would you like to see me make a timeline involving a POD where the plot succeeds?

Discuss your thoughts.
 
Last edited:

Keenir

Banned
While in my US History AP class this afternoon, I cam across an interesting event that happened exactly 202 years ago today. I read that Vice President Aaron Burr & the incident where he was acquitted of being not guilty for treason against the United States in 1807. This scenario intrigued me about the possibility of an independent nation in the OTL southwest US & northern Mexico. Apparently he had conspired with James Wilkinson, who was commander-in-chief of the US Army, to annex parts of the Louisiana territory & Spanish territory in Mexico to create an independent republic/"southwestern empire".

The question is what is the plausibility, involving the right POD, for Burr's ambition to create a "southwestern empire" to come to fruition? How would the United States and Spain react to the establishment of a new republic?

And the question for the poll is, would you like to see me make a timeline involving a POD where the plot succeeds?

Discuss your thoughts.

haven't we established that conspiracy to be hot air?

Burr was more likely to get elected President on the platform of Womens Rights & Education (which he supported in OTL, even with his niece) than to go off and try to make an empire in teh middle of the desert)

that said, sure, make the timeline - it should be interesting.
 
Yeah i can't see it really working out, but that being said it would be interesting to see how that would affect things.
 
I would like to see a local monarchy in north America. But even if it fails watching it fail should be interesting and produce some odd butterflies.
 
So does being "acquitted of being not guilty for treason" mean one is found guilty of treason? :D

Not to be a grammar jerk or anything...
 
The establishment of such an empire would be improbable, the survival of the empire would be quite a feat indeed, and it becoming anything resembling a regional power is nigh-but-impossible.

Several contributing factors to the difficulty in such an empire include:
- Inhospitable landscape and/or hostile natives (this includes Native Americans and Mexico), mostly standing in the way of its establishment
- Poor leadership: Most of this "plan" was huff and puff, and if it did get off the ground, it's not going to fly well with people like Burr and Wilkinson in charge of it
- United States expansion: It's bound to happen, and this "empire" it's more likely to be ignored than even stand a chance of holding.

That all said, I really do think this would be an interesting TL, as long as those aforementioned issues are addressed in the context. Seems like it'd be very interesting.
 

Keenir

Banned
one question - is this our idea of the Southwest (Arizona, California, etc)...or what the Southwest would've been to the 13 Colonies? (because after the Revolution, "the Northwest" included Ohio)
 
I wouldn't plan on it lasting more than say 30 years or so. I would think that it would significantly alter the future of the US though, as well as Mexico.
 
Actually, if Burr and Wilkinson and a few hundred settlers end up in Texas, that could be interesting, so long as the concept of a monarchy isn't involved.

Perhaps they become the first empresarios?
 

Keenir

Banned
Actually, if Burr and Wilkinson and a few hundred settlers end up in Texas, that could be interesting, so long as the concept of a monarchy isn't involved.

Perhaps they become the first empresarios?

in Texas?

hm. there was an attempt in one or more German states [in Europe] to found a German colony/settlement in Texas - but the idea fizzled out.

maybe with Anglos in charge (not Spaniards), the idea won't die so soon?
 
in Texas?

hm. there was an attempt in one or more German states [in Europe] to found a German colony/settlement in Texas - but the idea fizzled out.

maybe with Anglos in charge (not Spaniards), the idea won't die so soon?

Moses Austin would be granted such a contract by the Spanish in 1820.

If a similar agreement between this hypothetical Burr/Wilkinson party and the Spanish government in Mexico could be achieved, it's a possibility.
 
one question - is this our idea of the Southwest (Arizona, California, etc)...or what the Southwest would've been to the 13 Colonies? (because after the Revolution, "the Northwest" included Ohio)

I think it referred probably more like what became Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, maybe chunks of Northern Mexico, which at the time was still New Spain.

But it could expand in a total ASBish way that includes New Mexcio, and maybe even Southern California and more chunks of Mexico.

It might not be total ASB though. At the time Mexico was still part of New Spain and the independence movement was about to start. For most of the Mexican War of Independence the north was very much ignored.

Burr could decide to take action a bit later in the 1810s between the 1813-1829 period where the war in Mexico had become pretty much a guerrilla movement focussed on the south and central portion of New Spain. Burr could end up in Laredo, Matamoros, or Monterey and start a northern rebellion there.

Eventually he is successful and ends up with a Republic / Empire corresponding mostly to the Rio Grande Republic plus Tejas (maybe New Mexico). At some point this nation ends up having a border conflict with Mexico which escalates into a war and it gains land further west.
It also encourages American and European settlement. If the POD is prior to 1819 there could be a different Adas-Onis treaty and the New Nation might have a shot at claiming Louisiana and Arkansas.
With Further Filibustering and Expansionism it ends up with California south of San Fran Bay. Assuming Manifest Destiny is still onboard for the US it gets the Northern Chunk or to make it interesting it becomes part of the Oregon territory and Britain eats it.
 

Teleology

Banned
Aaron Burr and his bunch settling in the Southwest is plausible but not all that interesting.

Now, if he had gotten the British naval support he had wanted to cut off New Orleans from the Louisiana Purchase...
 
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