AANW WI: Führer Heydrich

[Historyman 14]

What if, between 1942 to 1946 Hitler dies and in the power struggle, Reinhard Heydrich, main architect of the Holocaust, and "the man with the iron heart", comes to be the Führer of the Third Reich and all of Nazi control Europe?

How does CalBear world look with Heydrich as the man leading Germany? How does Europe fair under his rule? Does War start again between the Axis, and the Allied Powers?

(Original TL.)

 

[TheSpectacledCloth]

Well, if Heydrich came out on top, you'd see a regime that emphasizes more on efficiency than racial pride. Despite being part of the S.S. and being Himmler's primary henchman, he was not as racially motivated or that devoted to the National Socialist cause. He'd, of course, continue the Nazi regime but with more organization and accuracy. The radical ideals of the late Goebbels and Himmler would take a backseat to the realist direction of Heydrich. The S.S. would grow more powerful than before, but be 'reformed' to Heydrich's liking. I think it's fair to say that he'd avoid direct war with the Allied Powers, but would make provoking actions to emphasize on the Reich's power (like Putin OTL)

 

[Historyman 14]

Well, if Heydrich came out on top, you'd see a regime that emphasizes more on efficiency than racial pride. Despite being part of the S.S. and being Himmler's primary henchman, he was not as racially motivated or that devoted to the National Socialist cause. He'd, of course, continue the Nazi regime but with more organization and accuracy. The radical ideals of the late Goebbels and Himmler would take a backseat to the realist direction of Heydrich. The S.S. would grow more powerful than before, but be 'reformed' to Heydrich's liking. I think it's fair to say that he'd avoid direct war with the Allied Powers, but would make provoking actions to emphasize on the Reich's power (like Putin OTL)

So this Third Reich will not make the idiotic mistakes of Hitler, Himmler, and most of everything the Third Reich suffer from in AANW. SS won't replace the Wehrmacht so it will have a real, highly train fighting force. Germany could really become a Superpower if it does not fight the Allies in a direct war as in AANW 50s, and makes all the right moves not base on Nazi ideology.

(BTW: Blame Heydrich for the site going down again.)

 

[pattontank12]

We'd probably see a Anglo-American Nazi cold war. With the Nazi regime lasting into the 21st century. Heydrich was a monster but a highly efficient and pragmatic monster. He might dial back on the more monstrous actions of the Third Reich. Though out of shear pragmatism, instead out of any sense of common decency.

 

[Historyman 14]

We'd probably see a Anglo-American Nazi cold war. With the Nazi regime lasting into the 21st century. Heydrich was a monster but a highly efficient and pragmatic monster. He might dial back on the more monstrous actions of the Third Reich. Though out of shear pragmatism, instead out of any sense of common decency.

Well, this is...both bad, and good. I mean, we saved the Allies from undergoing the total nightmare of the 50s, and 60s Hot War, and suffering from MAJOR PTSD afterward. And save Paris, Rome, and all the cultural cities of Europe from being destroyed by Hitler/Himmler.

And yet....it's the Third Reich rule by Heydrich. What may be worst is the Nazis getting the bomb with Heydrich seeing past the NVKD lies, and misinformation and is able to push it.

 

[pattontank12]

Well, this is...both bad, and good. I mean, we saved the Allies from undergoing the total nightmare of the 50s, and 60s Hot War, and suffering from MAJOR PTSD afterward. And save Paris, Rome, and all the cultural cities of Europe from being destroyed by Hitler/Himmler.

And yet....it's the Third Reich rule by Heydrich. What may be worst is the Nazis getting the bomb with Heydrich seeing past the NVKD lies, and misinformation and is able to push it.

We probably would see the Nazi's armed with nuclear weapons. Though hopefully Heydrich would be able to purge the party of more fanatical and insane members.

In the events of drawn out cold war we'd see at best the Nazi's suffering a Soviet style collapse but with the nations of Europe still being racist, militaristic, authoritarian and imperialistic. At worst we'd actually see the Nazi's winning the cold war. Let that sink in for a moment.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Heydrich really wasn't the "sane" Nazi people paint him. Yes, he was ruthless and quickly rose up the SS ranks, but he was still an insane sociopath. He was hyper paranoid, had few friends, and fewer allies in the SS. Other SS officers (correctly) regarded by basically everyone as an opportunistic careerist, and even if he did somehow finagle his way into being Fuhrer/Acting Fuhrer, he would have a tough time getting everyone in line.

Plus, this was a guy dumb enough to drive around occupied Prague in a open topped car. He was smart, but he's not the supervillain people have made him out to be.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

Heydrich really wasn't the "sane" Nazi people paint him.

"Sane" in the sense that he wasn't beholden to ideology.

Plus, this was a guy dumb enough to drive around occupied Prague in a open topped car. He was smart, but he's not the supervillain people have made him out to be.

Well, being arrogant isn't really a factor in considering whether one is smart enough to vitalize the Nazi economy.

 

[Kung Fucious]

"Sane" in the sense that he wasn't beholden to ideology.

Well, being arrogant isn't really a factor in considering whether one is smart enough to vitalize the Nazi economy.

He was as beholden to ideology so long as it would advance his career. By the time he's positioned to actually take a shot at being Führer, he'd probably be indoctrinated (or pull a George Wallace and play the part so well he becomes it). Also, he's not going to try and shank Himmler; Himmler was basically the only person he felt any loyalty towards, and that loyalty was absolute. If you want a Führer Heydrich, you need to remove Himmler from the picture.

As to how he fairs, he's not going to be the Notler he's fetishized as; he might be a "sane" Nazi, but he's still a sociopathic Nazi who happily organized the murder of millions of people because it would advance his career. It's entirely possible that once he reaches the top position he finds himself a victim of the Peter Principle, and becomes just as risky of a gambler as Hitler/Himmler. War with the WAllies is inevitable; while it might not restart in the manner of the original TL, it's going to happen one way or the other. Heydrich is also going to have to navigate all the pitfalls war with the WAllies entails, while also dealing with the fact that he doesn't have the fantastical loyalty Hitler commanded. If he comes to power in the late 40's, it's entirely possible the Wehrmacht offs him, perhaps even with tacit cooperation of his enemies in the SS.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

By the time he's positioned to actually take a shot at being Führer, he'd probably be indoctrinated (or pull a George Wallace and play the part so well he becomes it).

Questionable, since Heydrich was with the Nazis before they came to power. If being a Nazi for 10 years didn't indoctrinate him, I doubt it would do so if he survived past 1941.

Also, he's not going to try and shank Himmler; Himmler was basically the only person he felt any loyalty towards, and that loyalty was absolute. If you want a Führer Heydrich, you need to remove Himmler from the picture.

And your proof is, against basically all the witnesses who knew that Heydrich detested the ignorant Himmlar?

Heydrich is also going to have to navigate all the pitfalls war with the WAllies entails, while also dealing with the fact that he doesn't have the fantastical loyalty Hitler commanded. If he comes to power in the late 40's, it's entirely possible the Wehrmacht offs him, perhaps even with tacit cooperation of his enemies in the SS.

I can get behind this.

 

[xie323]

What if, between 1942 to 1946 Hitler dies and in the power struggle, Reinhard Heydrich, main architect of the Holocaust, and "the man with the iron heart", comes to be the Führer of the Third Reich and all of Nazi control Europe?

How does CalBear world look with Heydrich as the man leading Germany? How does Europe fair under his rule? Does War start again between the Axis, and the Allied Powers?

(Original TL.)

This probably won't end well. Most likely there will be a transition from a "Warm War" to a "Silent War" as Heydrich was dangerously nonpracticing of pragmatic villainy, which may lead to Nazis getting nukes, and at best we can only hope that the Nazis collapse after Heydrich's death........

If WW3 starts the world will be a radioactive graveyard I guess.

 

[John Dusk]

This is what CalBear had to say about Heydrich becoming Führer:

Heydrich was the scary one. Brilliant (unlike most of the Party leaders, who had the intellect of a stunned koi fish), utterly amoral, and cold, even among his fellow National Socialist scum.

If he had ever taken over... bad juju.

What may be worst is the Nazis getting the bomb with Heydrich seeing past the NVKD lies, and misinformation and is able to push it.

How many nuclear weapons would the Reich be able to build with the resources of continental Europe at their disposal?

 

[thorr97]

Of course, a lot would depend on the particulars of the POD that gets that exemplar of humanity, Heydrich, into the top slot.

But even assuming the most generous turn of events for his ascension - would it really have made much difference to Germany's ability to sustain itself? Economically, Germany was a basket case going in to the war and even with all that newly gained conquest spoils, it'd still possess the economic policies which'd make a basket case once again in fairly short order.

A more efficient Fuhrer might mitigate that but only somewhat. I've not seen anything on Heydrich's economic acumen so whether or not he even could recognize the economic dead end National Socialism was is but conjecture.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

A more efficient Fuhrer might mitigate that but only somewhat. I've not seen anything on Heydrich's economic acumen so whether or not he even could recognize the economic dead end National Socialism was is but conjecture.

He made the rebelling Protectorate actually work, until he was assassinated by the Czechoslovakian government-in-exile, who did that because they were losing control.

 

[Hugo Strange]

If the POD is after 1942, then obviously Heydrich will be inheriting a sinking ship from Hitler. Operation Barbarossa is already underway, and the United States have now officially entered the war. Despite all the talk of a hot war turning into a cold war, I'm not sure Heydrich would be able to turn the tide on the eastern front (and somehow win Stalingrad?) or to negotiate any sort of peace with the Western Allies that doesn't involve a Nazi surrender. Yes, Heydrich was more methodical than Hitler, and would avoid some of the glaring mistakes. He may even delay the inevitable defeat until 1946, but with a 1942 POD I can't see any result other than the total surrender of Germany no matter who succeeds Hitler. Heydrich taking over before the summer of 1941 (Barbarossa), and there could be a negotiated peace considering Heydrich didn't share Hitler's hatred of communism and the views of Slavs being sub-human (i.e. a more rational Hitler not obsessed with destroying Bolshevism simply isn't Hitler). But post-1942, not even Heydrich could save the sinking ship.

 

[xie323]

If the POD is after 1942, then obviously Heydrich will be inheriting a sinking ship from Hitler. Operation Barbarossa is already underway, and the United States have now officially entered the war. Despite all the talk of a hot war turning into a cold war, I'm not sure Heydrich would be able to turn the tide on the eastern front (and somehow win Stalingrad?) or to negotiate any sort of peace with the Western Allies that doesn't involve a Nazi surrender. Yes, Heydrich was more methodical than Hitler, and would avoid some of the glaring mistakes. He may even delay the inevitable defeat until 1946, but with a 1942 POD I can't see any result other than the total surrender of Germany no matter who succeeds Hitler. Heydrich taking over before the summer of 1941 (Barbarossa), and there could be a negotiated peace considering Heydrich didn't share Hitler's hatred of communism and the views of Slavs being sub-human (i.e. a more rational Hitler not obsessed with destroying Bolshevism simply isn't Hitler). But post-1942, not even Heydrich could save the sinking ship.

This was in AANW, a timeline where the Nazis won but was defeated in a third world war.