Aachen as a German/HRE Paris

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Deleted member 1487

What if German managed to centralize relatively early on, say under the Hohenstaufens, and made Aachen their permanent capital with the same sort of centralized power as the French would have with Paris? What would that mean for the HRE and the region? Could it support a major populace like Paris would, in the millions? Could the HRE have been able to centralize to the same degree as France was able to?
 

RavenMM

Banned
Aachen as the capital of a centralised HRE is afaik possible - France only startet to centralize after the Staufer, so with the right POD...

But the city is nowhere next to a big river - that would impede the population grow. Maybe cologne or duisburg would make better capitals...
 
Aachen as the capital of a centralised HRE is afaik possible - France only startet to centralize after the Staufer, so with the right POD...

But the city is nowhere next to a big river - that would impede the population grow. Maybe cologne or duisburg would make better capitals...

Aachen could be a ceremonial capital, a place where the Holy Roman Emperors would be crowned instead of Rome.

Personally, I think Mainz would be a better (central) capital. Cologne is near a big river but it's also too prone to flooding and Duisburg is too northwest.
 
The most important thing would be transport connections and therefore the geographic situation of the capital.

1. North to south:
Somewhere along the Rhein (Rhine River) would be an obvious choice in the more western part of the Reich. It provides a not quite excellent north-south connection, as the Rhein was a wild and vicious river especially in its southern parts, but the best you can get.

2. East to West:
the largest tributary of the Rhein in (a roughly straight) east-west direction is the Main River. The main also is the fourth largest tributary of the Rhine (in quantity of transported water) and the longest one (besides the Maas).
And contrary to the Maas and Mosel Rivers he is an eastern tributary, therefore enabling fast travelling and transportation in (or more accurate coming from) this direction.
Other choices could be the Neckar and the Lahn. While the Neckar is quite a big River he is rather short and flows more in a south-north direction. The Lahn otoh flows east to west but is rather shallow and has a lot of rough spots and rapids, not really suitable for shipping.

So I would say somewhere along the Main, and possibly it's tributaries, might be the most obvious spot. There are many already during the middle ages important cities in this area (map). And the whole area was part of the Staufer demesne.
And as royalty likes comfort I would choose Wiesbaden because of its hot springs. It is documented that many german kings liked Aachen especially for the hot springs there. Furthermore it lies on the confluence of Main and Rhein.
 
What about Hamburg?

Not a chance. It doesn't really become significant until the 14th century, and even then it's far more tied up with the economic and political fortunes of Scandinavia and England than those of the HRE.

If you want a plausible candidate for a city big and connected enough to attract institutions at that time, Cologne would be it. Aachen was a bit off the beaten path, but it could be chosen as primary residence for symbolic reasons. But there remains the problem that all major cities of the HRE were already somebody else's property or seat, so an imperial court would be an interloper from their POV. Hard to make that a permanent arrangement if your negiotiating position is as weak as that of a Holy Roman Emperor. I think the emergence of a de facto capital from a family seat of the Hohenstaufen is more likely.

Of course IOTL that happened to Palermo.
 
I agree that Frankfurt could be the capital. Aachen, like IOTL until the end of the medieval period, will remain the HRE equivalent of Reims.
 
I agree that Frankfurt could be the capital. Aachen, like IOTL until the end of the medieval period, will remain the HRE equivalent of Reims.

I think the Aachens/Rheims analogy is very good.

However, people, I think we're missing a point here. Any PoD thats early enough to look back to Aachen and Charlemagne, and most PoDs early enough to have a strong centralized HRE, are early enough that the HRE includes Italy.

By the time theyve given up on Italy and it's the HREGN, it's probably too late to centralize.

No?
 
Also Frankfurt am Main was the location, where the King of the Romans (German King) was elected, after the Middle Ages the coronation, also occurred there.
 
Also Frankfurt am Main was the location, where the King of the Romans (German King) was elected, after the Middle Ages the coronation, also occurred there.

To be precise: Since 1147, most elections happened in Frankfurt. In 1356 the Golden Bull fixed them there.

To be even more detailed:
Ludwig das Kind, elected 900 in Forchheim
Konrad I. elected 911 in Forchheim
Heinrich I. elected 919 in Fritzlar
Otto I. anointed as successor 930 in Mainz
Otto II. elected as co-king 961 in Worms
Otto III elected 983 in Verona
Heinrich II. elected 1002 in Mainz
Konrad II. elected 1024 in Kamba (near Mainz)
Heinrich III. elected 1028 in Aachen
Heinrich IV: elected 1053 in Trebur (near Mainz)
Heinrich V. elected 1105 in Mainz
Lothar elected 1125 in Mainz
Friedrich I. elected 1152 in Frankfurt
Heinrich VI. elected 1169 in Bamberg
Otto IV. elected 1198 in Köln/Cologne
Friedrich II. elected 1196 in Frankfurt
Heinrich (VII.) elected 1220 in Frankfurt
Konrad IV., failed election 1235 in Mainz, elected 1237 in Wien/Vienna
Wilhelm von Holland, elected 1247 in Worringen (near Cologne)
Richard and Alfonso, both elected 1257 in and near Frankfurt
Rudolf I. elected 1273 in Frankfurt
Adolf I. elected 1292 in Frankfurt
Albrecht I. elected 1298 in Mainz
Heinrich VII. elected 1308 in Frankfurt
Ludwig IV. and Friedrich elected 1314 in Frankfurt and Sachsenhausen
Karl IV. elected 1346 in Rhens (near Koblenz) and 1349 in Frankfurt

So yes, an overwhelming majority of royal elections happened in the Mainz-Frankfurt area. Add in the fact that the Archbishop of Mainz was the Archchancellor of Germany, who organized the royal elections, appointed the personnel of the Imperial Chancery, kept the imperial seal and the archives; plus the importance of the Frankfurt trade fair since the 12th century and we have a clear winner.
 

RavenMM

Banned
So... could the HRE be able to centralize around a Mainz/Frankfurt? Maybe Wiesbaden, with it's hot springs, could be like versaille for france...

What are good PODs for HRE centralisation and who would be most able to make the Rhein/Main area his seat of Power?
 
So... could the HRE be able to centralize around a Mainz/Frankfurt? Maybe Wiesbaden, with it's hot springs, could be like versaille for france...

What are good PODs for HRE centralisation and who would be most able to make the Rhein/Main area his seat of Power?

The Staufen are popular, continuing Ottoians, successful resolution of the investiture controversy . . .


The main thing that comes to mind is that it's not something that any one decision can make or break - it's going to be a long drawn out process like how the French kings built up a significant royal demense, insisted on and maintained their rights as kings, and gradually won out.
 
@ Westphalian: this might be connected with the fact, that given the German Kingdom developed out of East Francia, traditionally the royal election and coronation was
on Frankish/Franconian soil.
 

Deleted member 1487

Very interesting info, thanks everyone!

So as an addendum to my original post, could Frankfurt am Main then be the HRE/German Paris with a centralized monarchy?
 
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