Aabenraa university

Valdemar II

Banned
In 1665 the Gottorps founded the University of Kiel. Kiel wasn't a bad choice, it was well placed, of course it was still a very small and undevelop town, but the Gottorps didn't really have a choice, Flesburg and Altona belonged to the Oldenburg mainline, Schleswig (town) was under co-domination, Sönderburg/Sønderborg belonged to the Sönderburg line. But there was two other choice Tönder and Aabenraa was both under the Gottorp, they had somewhat the same size as Kiel. Tönder was a little to badly placed, but Aabenraa wasn't much worse placed. Of course in OTL Kiel ended up as the centrum of Holstein and to lesser extent Schleswig thanks to the intelligensia which Kiel university created. So what if Aabenraa end up the university town, it will gain a great increase thanks to the students and staff (Kiel doubled in size). Of course it will likely not changing the Danish conquest of Aabenraa in the Great Northen War, but the King will likely let Aabenraa continue become Schleswig-Holstein University, while the Gottorps restricted to their own possesions in Holstein, and likely try to create a new university in Kiel (and fail*) and be forced to hire student from outside their domain.

Linguistic I expwect this will strengthen the Low German enclave in Aabenraa, of course with the university placed in the middle of Danish area, I expect the Gottorps also to take Danish student, it will likely adopt the local dialect as education language strengthen the linguistic position of Sønderjysk/Plattdänisch/South Jutish, which is quite distinct from standard Danish (having only one gender). The distinctness of South Jutish resulted in many speakers chosing to studie in Low German which they was bilingual in rather than standard Danish which they had trouble understand, here we see the creation of South Jutish speaking intelligensia rather than letting it become the language of the uneducated. Ironic we get both a stronger Schleswigian/South Jutish identity, while at the same time likely see a greater spread of Danish. At the same time we get a greater toleration for variations in the Danish language.

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*Kiel University was slowly collapsing in the periode, thanks to the fact that the Oldenburg forbad the hiring of students as priests (which was the universities major output) in the Oldenburg or co-domination area, limiting the student to few job (ensuring they sought education other places).
 

Deleted member 5719

Do you think that a Dano/Low German university might pull Denmark closer culturally towards the German states to the South, or could the attraction run the other way?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Do you think that a Dano/Low German university might pull Denmark closer culturally towards the German states to the South, or could the attraction run the other way?

No by this date, it was to late, it will have a large effect of Schleswig-Holstein, it's local dialect and on the development of the Danish languages, but there're other universities in North Germany which will keep insure North Germany stay focused toward a common identity. The biggest effect I imagine are in SH. In OTL Kiel and Flensburg develop into the big cities of SH, Kiel turn into the intellectual (and later the inductrial) centrum, while Flensburg became the mechantile and naval centrum of the territorium. Geograpic there's little reason to this development Schleswig (town) and Aabenraa are as well placed, and Schleswig are in truth placed better than Kiel, but because of the growth of Kiel (thanks to the university) Schlewig (town) become secondary, while Flensburg become dominant because of it central position (thanks to the Schleswig (town) fall in prestige). So likely we see Aabenraa become the intellectual centre of the duchies, which weakens closeby Flensburg position (potential rural immigrants end up in Aabenraa), while Kiels weak position result in growing rural immigration to Schleswig (town), which end up the naval and mechantile centre of the duchies.
By 1800 the dialect of Schleswig-Holstein has grown even more distinct (likely complete ununderstandeble for Germans), Holsteins position has been weaken in favour of it northen partner, Northen and Easten Holstein look toward Schleswig (town) for trade, while the West and South look toward Altona and Hamburg. Likely because we lack a standardisation of German and the distinctness of the local dialect, we see a growing literature in the Schleswig-Holstein Low German (will likely have dropped the three gender of German and adopted the single one of Friesian and South Jutish) and to lesser extent South Jutish, through the two dialect are slowly merging. In 19th century we likely see a growing hostility toward Danish centralisation, but it will focus on local autonomy rather than a focus toward Germany. The focus on autonomy rather than German nationalism, will likely keep Danish nationalism from becoming as chaunistic as OTL, and the big issues between SH and Denmark, become decentralisation versus centralisation rather than German versus Danish nationalism. Which mean we can likely avoid the two civil wars, through Denmark will likely evolve into a much more decentral state, with much greater linguistic variations.

(of course this is in a low butterfly world)
 

Redbeard

Banned
"Aabenraa University" - you must get used to it - something like "Smallville Institute of Technology" :D

But if this starts in 17th century we might have a substantial Aabenraa by now - it certainly is beautifully located!

I think your points about Kiel and Flensburg loosing importance are plausible, but I'm more uncertain about the effect in itself on language and culture in S-H. Were universities that dependent on the close neighbourhood? Wouldn't the university be part of the same north German intelectual context - no matter if it is placed in Aabenraa or Kiel?

But of course, if the point of gravity in general moves from Kiel in Holsten to Aabenraa in Slesvig it ought to mean S-H being more Slesvig-Holsten and less Germany. In itself that could mean a less prominent agenda in Germany for including S-H and certainly make it more difficult for a Bismarck to annex S-H into Prussia - if the option arrives.

If the result is a bi-langual State of Denmark (Danish and Low-German) you could fear another Belgium - but of course the Belgians could point back and say that they haven't fought each other as much as us - yet.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Susano

Banned
Well, as one certain result, it would replace Aachen as first entry in German encyclopedias :D

But personally I dont see any large changes. Lingually, the location of the university wont matter all that much - as the ducial university lingual makeup would be rather made up by the duchy as a whole and not any particular location.

So the only thing that could matter is the growth of ertain S-H, cities, butr eally, Kiel or Aabenraa, I dont think that would make a great difference. As for the naturl advantages of Schleswig, Im not so sure: Schleswig Bay might make for a good natural harbour, but passing it costs time, as compared to the more open harbour of Kiel...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
"Aabenraa University" - you must get used to it - something like "Smallville Institute of Technology" :D

But if this starts in 17th century we might have a substantial Aabenraa by now - it certainly is beautifully located!

I think your points about Kiel and Flensburg loosing importance are plausible, but I'm more uncertain about the effect in itself on language and culture in S-H. Were universities that dependent on the close neighbourhood? Wouldn't the university be part of the same north German intelectual context - no matter if it is placed in Aabenraa or Kiel?

Yes, but one aspect is the kind of student, the university produce, Lutheran priests, while the primary language of the university are Latin and to lesser extent German, the priest are educated to preach in their own language, and it's here it will make a difference, not so much while it under Gottorp control (through even here influence from the local dialect will affect it), but more after Denmark take it over in 1720. While we see a split of Church language more or less along OTL post 1920 border, this is based on the nobles languages not the peasants. Of course the primary function of this language border are which bible is used a German or a Danish, the sermon was usual in the local dialect, and that was supported by the dukal autorities, which sought to get priests which was born in the area (often the son of the former priest). Of course these priest often brought new terms into the languages, and stood for the little education the locals got. By educate them in Kiel they lived for years in that town adopting small aspect of the local dialect bringing it home with them and spreading it, the effect of several generations priest doing so, especially if they already gained some of those effect in their childhood home pushed some standardisation of the dialect (we also see the Gottorp areas would later be some of the strongest suporter of German nationalism/autonomy).
The Danish takeover of the university in 1720 will change it even more, while in OTL most "German" priests in Oldenburg Schleswig was educated outside the "kingdom", something which only change with Danish takeove of Kiel university, here we see the education in "Denmark" over 40 years early, and the main recruitment area for students will be the Danish Schleswig-Holstein in which Schleswig at this time fill a lot more, meaning that people from that area become the most common students. This will mean that Aabenraa are going to get a rather distinct dialect. Because we get a city with lot learned young men (my best guess are that Aabenraa will have around 6000 inhabitants around 1720, of whom arond 2000 either work for or studie at the university) we're going to get a marked for literature, which like in Copenhagen will spread to the common people. But neither "standard" Danish or German fit the local dialects very well, but at the same time because standardiasation wasn't over, it wasn't uncommon to write in the local dialect. so we see a growing marked of Aabenraa Low German (low) literature. Which will be the closest to the other Low German dialect of Schleswig-Holstein. Which mean that this literature will likely be the common low literature of the duchies, resulting in some unconsious standardisation of the dialects too.

But of course, if the point of gravity in general moves from Kiel in Holsten to Aabenraa in Slesvig it ought to mean S-H being more Slesvig-Holsten and less Germany. In itself that could mean a less prominent agenda in Germany for including S-H and certainly make it more difficult for a Bismarck to annex S-H into Prussia - if the option arrives.

Yes the Holsteinian sought unification with Germany, while the Schleswigian sought more autonomy.
If the result is a bi-langual State of Denmark (Danish and Low-German) you could fear another Belgium - but of course the Belgians could point back and say that they haven't fought each other as much as us - yet.

We would be in quite a different situation from Belgium, the cultural and linguitic distinctness between Danes and North Germans are much less than between the Flemish and Wallons, and so are the economicals, the Flemish have always had a light industry and a mechantile focus, while the Wallons focus on heavy industry and resource extraction. Economical there will little difference in the interest between Danes and SHs (I really don't know what name they will end up with), we're both agricultural economies with light industry and a strong mechantile focus, our primary trading partners will be Germany, the rest of Scandinavia and UK. So in the end we will likely end up more like a non-neutral Switzerland than Belgium

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, as one certain result, it would replace Aachen as first entry in German encyclopedias :D

:D

But personally I dont see any large changes. Lingually, the location of the university wont matter all that much - as the ducial university lingual makeup would be rather made up by the duchy as a whole and not any particular location.

See my answer to Redbeard

So the only thing that could matter is the growth of ertain S-H, cities, butr eally, Kiel or Aabenraa, I dont think that would make a great difference. As for the naturl advantages of Schleswig, Im not so sure: Schleswig Bay might make for a good natural harbour, but passing it costs time, as compared to the more open harbour of Kiel...

Good point and that may effect later on, through Kiel only became a bigger city than Flensburg after the introduction of the railroads, but Kiel lies badly as a center for Schleswig-Holstein and the real explosion in growth only happen with the creation of Kiel Canal. While Schlewig lies at land transport hub, with the Sles to the east and swamp to the west and close to the Hærvejen/Heerweg (Ochsenweg), it was only it close neighbourhood with Kiel which got in the way for it growth.
 
By 1800 the dialect of Schleswig-Holstein has grown even more distinct (likely complete ununderstandeble for Germans), Holsteins position has been weaken in favour of it northen partner, Northen and Easten Holstein look toward Schleswig (town) for trade, while the West and South look toward Altona and Hamburg. Likely because we lack a standardisation of German and the distinctness of the local dialect, we see a growing literature in the Schleswig-Holstein Low German (will likely have dropped the three gender of German and adopted the single one of Friesian and South Jutish) and to lesser extent South Jutish, through the two dialect are slowly merging. In 19th century we likely see a growing hostility toward Danish centralisation, but it will focus on local autonomy rather than a focus toward Germany. The focus on autonomy rather than German nationalism, will likely keep Danish nationalism from becoming as chaunistic as OTL, and the big issues between SH and Denmark, become decentralisation versus centralisation rather than German versus Danish nationalism. Which mean we can likely avoid the two civil wars, through Denmark will likely evolve into a much more decentral state, with much greater linguistic variations.

(of course this is in a low butterfly world)

I don't agree on this (and then I do!) because the student movement of Kiel as I percieve it was the nationalist lever for the independent minded Ritterschaft of Schleswig-Holstein. It made their actions adoptable by the population of the land.
The language question was important but even more so post the 1848-51 war when Denmark really needed to assert itself.

I actually percieve the OTL situation to be the one you outline but disguised in the veil of nationalism.
The men of real power in Schleswig-Hostein to me don't look especially nationalist, they wanted independece and certainly didn't want to be part of Prussia or any other German state as little as they wanted to be part of a centralized Danish state.(Helstat)
Becoming part of any state would mean the end of their freedom of local rule.

But really its all in the perception of the perciever. :D
 
Yes the Holsteinian sought unification with Germany, while the Schleswigian sought more autonomy.

Continuing my previous post you could just as well argue that the dual allegiance of the Ritterschaft, which as I understand it was practically identical in Schleswig and Holstein made for it to balance between Denmark and Germany and stick together! ;)

The airy castel only deflated when shoved into the real world by Bismarck. :cool:
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I don't agree on this (and then I do!) because the student movement of Kiel as I percieve it was the nationalist lever for the independent minded Ritterschaft of Schleswig-Holstein. It made their actions adoptable by the population of the land.
The language question was important but even more so post the 1848-51 war when Denmark really needed to assert itself.

I actually percieve the OTL situation to be the one you outline but disguised in the veil of nationalism.
The men of real power in Schleswig-Hostein to me don't look especially nationalist, they wanted independece and certainly didn't want to be part of Prussia or any other German state as little as they wanted to be part of a centralized Danish state.(Helstat)
Becoming part of any state would mean the end of their freedom of local rule.

But really its all in the perception of the perciever. :D

I agree, but here they couldn't use student movement as lever (or at least have a lot harder at it), because it's split between a pro-Danish and pro-German fraction, and the Ritterschaft was strong in East Holstein in the area around Kiel (and in South Schleswig) but a lot weaker in the north, alienating the university somewhat from them. The lack of a intellectual screen for their goals will have emnourmous effects, people was willing to die for the unity of the Vaterland, but a lot fewer Schleswig-Holsteinians would be willing to die for the Ritterschafts, and the German states would likely also be less willing to help.
 
I agree, but here they couldn't use student movement as lever (or at least have a lot harder at it), because it's split between a pro-Danish and pro-German fraction, and the Ritterschaft was strong in East Holstein in the area around Kiel (and in South Schleswig) but a lot weaker in the north, alienating the university somewhat from them. The lack of a intellectual screen for their goals will have emnourmous effects, people was willing to die for the unity of the Vaterland, but a lot fewer Schleswig-Holsteinians would be willing to die for the Ritterschafts, and the German states would likely also be less willing to help.

But then we might perhaps see another kind of 1848 (if it arrives).
If the Ritterschaft make it to realize their situation they would have to decide where to put their allegiance. ITTL they wouldn't be able to play the Germans and Danish against each other thus if they try playing the "the monarchs been overthrown card" as OTL they'll effectively lose popular support; or rather not gain it.
That would make for a quick Danish win in 1848 and no London Treaty to uphold the status quo.

Then the outcome would very much depend on the Danish government but without the language question things may defuse itself and an actual constitution be possible because of the humilitation of the Ritterschaft in the war!
This would probably make for actual power in the Duchies to centre on the Estates Assembly AND make incorporation of Slesvig into the Kingdom a piece of cake. (of course the Ribe constitution of 1460 would have to be abolished but ITTL it is surely possible)

If the Ritterschaft tries going for the German Confederation it may well lose Slesvig in the process, which may opt for some kind of "autonomy" secured by Danish military presence.

Quite interesting.
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