A world without mad King Ludwig

How would the course of human history have changed if Ludwig II of Bavaria had died from some disease in infancy and never came to rule Bavaria.

I realise the changes won't be large, but I'm still interested to know what they may be.

One thing that would change would that many of Wagner's operas wouldn't have been written as ITTL he would not have the patronage from Ludwig to allow him to continue writing without financial worries.

Any other thoughts?

P.S. Just to anyone who's interested, Wagner happens to be a relative of mine. A great,great,great, great uncle to be exact if I recall correctly :cool:.
 
Without Ludwig II., maybe there could have been a more centralized Germany or at least a Bismarckian Germany without Bavarian Reservatrechte like special Bavarian post, own army in peace times etc.
On the long run, this could lead to Weimar state without federalism. Just a thought... ;)

Oh yes, surely there wouldn't have been Neuschwanstein or similar. And Wagner - he'd probably emigrate into Belgium, France or the U.S. Those were liberal states.
 
Without Ludwig II., maybe there could have been a more centralized Germany or at least a Bismarckian Germany without Bavarian Reservatrechte like special Bavarian post, own army in peace times etc.
On the long run, this could lead to Weimar state without federalism. Just a thought... ;)

Oh yes, surely there wouldn't have been Neuschwanstein or similar. And Wagner - he'd probably emigrate into Belgium, France or the U.S. Those were liberal states.

I wonder what Wagner could get up to in the USA?...

Interesting thought about a more centralised Reich and Republic. Perhaps the Weimar republic would last longer ITTL?
 
How would the course of human history have changed if Ludwig II of Bavaria had died from some disease in infancy and never came to rule Bavaria.

I realise the changes won't be large, but I'm still interested to know what they may be.

One thing that would change would that many of Wagner's operas wouldn't have been written as ITTL he would not have the patronage from Ludwig to allow him to continue writing without financial worries.

Any other thoughts?

P.S. Just to anyone who's interested, Wagner happens to be a relative of mine. A great,great,great, great uncle to be exact if I recall correctly :cool:.

Walt Disney wouldn't have had that wonderful castle as an inspiration for several of his movies or his theme park. Maybe he wouldn't have gone into the cartoon business at all.
 
One thing I can think of - the German name for Bavaria would be something like Bairiern or Bairern, because it was due to Ludwig that the letter "y" was used to spell it (hence Bayern).
 
I wonder what Wagner could get up to in the USA?...

Interesting thought about a more centralised Reich and Republic. Perhaps the Weimar republic would last longer ITTL?

Wagner was on the barricades of the German revolution of 1848 and was exiled. He returned to Germany in 1862, before that he lived in Switzerland and Upper Italy. He was a liberal - thus I offered him the opportunity to leave Europe... But probably, he'd be living in Italy or France or something.

If he hadn't written his "Ring" and other works, Nietzsche wouldn't have been in trouble with him. Without Wagner's work and Nietzsche's criticism even National Socialism would have another shape.
 
Well first off don't think that the arts in Bavaria would be totally shot.

Assuming Ludwig dies prior to assuming the throne, the next in line would be his younger brother Otto of Bavaria. 3 years younger than Ludwig, Otto would only be 15 upon assuming the throne, this being a tad shy of his majority a regent is obviously required. I see no reason why Prince Luitpold, the man who served as regent for both Ludwig II and Otto in OTL wouldn't take the job in TTL seeing that he's the most obvious candidate.

Now in OTL, Luitpold's tenure as Prince Regent was a fairly good time for the arts in Bavaria. Many of Ludwig II's castles were opened up to the public and Luitpold otherwise pursued a fairly liberal course of action. Munich became a cultural center in Europe and many streets took on the names Prinzregentenstrasse or Luitpoldstrasse. Though I see no reason for this trend to change, without Ludwig II's romanticism I doubt it will be as widespread. Certainly the patronage of the arts and the trend of liberal government would continue albeit in somewhat of a muted fashion.

Basically what you are doing in this TL is extending Bavaria's "Regency Period" to encompass the later half of the 19th century rather than the latter quarter (by which time Bavaria was a kingdom in name only). As Otto I of Bavaria suffered from mental illness and very well could be denied the right of majority leaving Luitpold as the de-facto ruler. Judging from Otto's life and rumors of Luitpold's machivellian trends I'd say that it isn't that much of a stretch.

The question that remains is how Luitpold would have responded to the challenges faced by Bavaria in the late 19th century. I doubt he would have deviated from Ludwig's policy of supporting Austria in the 7 weeks war. If the result of said conflict remains the same Bavaria's fate is relatively unaltered as is history. One less king of Bavaria...

However, the 7 weeks war wasn't as clear cut as it's made out to be. In reality it was a much nearer run thing than Prussia would've liked. It's conceivable that minor Butterflies might alter the battle of Koniggratz, perhaps delaying the arrival of the 2nd Army and allowing the Austrians to flank the Prussians and take the field with their inferior technology.

Couple this with a potentially stronger Bavarian military (money has to go somewhere...) that might be able to link up with the Hanoverians and provide somewhat of a challenge to the Prussians in the west, and you have the potential for at the very least, a prolonged conflict, perhaps a stalemate or an Austrian victory.

From there who's to say what happens next? But I digress having strayed far from the original question on the premise of Butterflies alone.

Anyways, my two cents.
 
If Bavaria is fiscally and possibly militarily stronger, how might this affect German unification?

Leyermark seems to have some knowledge about how Bavaria was incorporated into the German Empire in OTL. Perhaps he could elaborate?
 
As Fearless Leader suggested a stronger Bavaria could butterfly into Austrian victory in the Austro-Prussian War. This could seriously change German unification as the North German Confederation (the precursor to the Second Reich) was formed after a Prussian victory.

We could well see a rather disunited Germany ITTL.
 
No,Bavarian fairytale castles like Neuschwanstein and the Herrenchiemsee complex.:(
And likely a less recognizable Disney Cinderella film, which was a cinematic and animated hallmark; and thus a much crappier Disneyland and Walt Disney-World.
A sad world, indeed. :(
 
I'm so sorry...

... but I haven't had a look into this thread since summer. So be this an answer to Merry Prankster!

During the 19th century, Bavaria tried to conduct a 'third Germany' policy - what meant a Germany besides Prussia and Austria.

Bavaria went to war on Austria's side in 1866. After the loss and the foundation of the Northern German Confederation (Norddeutscher Bund), Bavaria, Wurttemberg and Bade signed secret defense treaties with Prussia.

Bismarck needed an outside power that wanted to interfere in German affairs. That was Napoleon III's France, that was known because of its bad habit of trying to regain border areas like Belgium, Luxembourg or the Palatinate.

When Napoleon III declared war on Prussia, Bavaria and the Southern German States fulfilled their part of the defense treaties. During the war, Bismarck bribed Bavarian king Ludwig with the money from Welfenfond (a fortune taken from the Hannoverian dynasty of the Welfen) and let Bavarian some so called 'Reservatrechte'. These were rights to keep a souvereign status like Bavarian stamps or Bavarian military high command in times of peace.
 

Neroon

Banned
On the long run, this could lead to Weimar state without federalism. Just a thought... ;)
In the even longer run, if post WW2 Germany doesn't have OTL federalism then Bavaria will probably have an SNP-style seperatist party.
 
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