A world without fasces or swasticas or gulags: a collaborative timeline

27th March - 2nd April 1922: With a small margin, Leo Trotsky became first General Secretary of the PCUS, beating Josef Stalin. Trotsky previously emerged victorious in the debate against Frunze about the future policies of the Red Army, then he allied with Bukharin convincing him Stalin wasn't to be trusted and promising him to revise together the NEP. Lenin wasn't fully convinced of the idea to keep Stalin under control, but he gave his green light anyway for the election of Trotsky. Stalin secretly bowed revenge...

28th October 1922: the King of Italy Vittorio Emanuele III accepted to sign the decree of emergency proposed by first minister Luigi Facta to stop the Fascist attempt of coup. In the next hours, detachments of soldiers and policemen raised barricades on the main entries to Rome. Caught unprepared, the various groups blackshirts routed away; hearing the bad news coming from the capital, Mussolini barely escape to Switzerland. In the next days, Fascists supporters were arrested all across the country while the PNF was declared illegal.

9th November 1923: During the skirmishes between Nazis and Bavarian policemen, a straight bullet hit in front Adolf Hitler, killing him instantly. The Nazis opened the fire, but the policemen reacted killing many people including also Erich Ludendorff. Ernst Rohm, hearing the bad news, surrended hoping to have clemency, but the high military spheres in Berlin were furious with the Nazis culpable to have involved Ludendorff in their schemes. In the next months, the most involved in the coup as Rohm received high condemns, while the NSDAP was declared illegal and the SA disbanded, while few prominent Nazis such as Himmler and Goebbles escaped in Austria.

21th-22th January 1924: In the hours following the death of Lenin, Stalin and some supporters tried to overthrow the Politburo, but he was discovered and forced to escape from the Soviet Union. A newly appointed triumvirate composed by Trotsky, Bukharin and Zinoviev was de facto the controller of the USSR...

Ok, so I gave here the three/four POD which butterflied the rise of Fascism in Italy, Nazism in Germany and Stalinism in USSR. Democracy will be reinforced in Europe or other authoritarian movements could rise? It could be the golden opportunity to promote the world revolution in the name of Communism? Or the USSR will fall miserably? I hope the start I give here could be stimulating enough for a collaborative project, and many decided to jump the vagon to rewrite together the history of XXth century...
 
27th March - 2nd April 1922: With a small margin, Leo Trotsky became first General Secretary of the PCUS, beating Josef Stalin. Trotsky previously emerged victorious in the debate against Frunze about the future policies of the Red Army, then he allied with Bukharin convincing him Stalin wasn't to be trusted and promising him to revise together the NEP. Lenin wasn't fully convinced of the idea keep Stalin under control, but he gave his green light too for the election of Trotsky. Stalin secretly bowed revenge...

28th October 1922: the King of Italy Vittorio Emanuele III accepted to sign the decree of emergency proposed by first minister Luigi Facta to stop the Fascist attempt of coup. In the next hours, detachments of soldiers and policemen raised barricades on the main entries to Rome. Caught unprepared, the various groups blackshirts routed away; hearing the bad news coming from the capital, Mussolini barely escape to Switzerland. In the next days, Fascists supporters were arrested all across the country while the PNF was declared illegal.

9th November 1923: During the skirmishes between Nazis and Bavarian policemen, a straight bullet hit in front Adolf Hitler, killing him instantly. The Nazis opened the fire, but the policemen reacted killing many people including also Erich Ludendorff. Ernst Rohm, hearing the bad news, surrended hoping to have clemency, but the high military spheres in Berlin were furious with the Nazis culpable to have involved Ludendorff in their schemes. In the next months, the most involved in the coup as Rohm received high condemns, while the NSDAP was declared illegal and the SA disbanded, while few prominent Nazis such as Himmler and Goebbles escaped in Austria.

21th-22th January 1924: In the hours following the death of Lenin, Stalin and some supporters tried to overthrow the Politburo, but he was discovered and forced to escape from the Soviet Union. A newly appointed triumvirate composed by Trotsky, Bukharin and Zinoviev was de facto the controller of the USSR...

Ok, so I gave here the three/four POD which butterflied the rise of Fascism in Italy, Nazism in Germany and Stalinism in USSR. Democracy will be reinforced in Europe or other authoritarian movements could rise? It could be the golden opportunity to promote the world revolution in the name of Communism? Or the USSR will fall miserably? I hope the start I give here could be stimulating enough for a collaborative project, and many decided to jump the vagon to rewrite together the history of XXth century...

You really haven't butterflied Nazism. It could rise in Austria, as many of its supporters fled over to Austria.
 
If you want no fasces, you'll have to go back to the Roman Empire :p

But I get what you mean.
 
You really haven't butterflied Nazism. It could rise in Austria, as many of its supporters fled over to Austria.

True. It is to the choice of the participants to decide if Germany and Italy should use the iron grip (requests of extradictions) or not. Anyway, even if Austria became Nazis the aim is to make Germany not a Nazi country, so the space of movements for the supportes are quite limited. And without a Fascist Italy, in the end they will made few progress, at least an alliance with Hungary but not much more...
 
How is Trotsky going to lead to no gulags and a revised NEP? The NEP was intended by Lenin to be temporary after the failure of war communism. You would still have prison camps, they might not be gulags, but they would serve the same function.

As for Germany and Italy what happens to the conservative elements? Even if you don't have Fascism and Nazism as formal doctrines, whats to stop alternate right wing ideologies from rising in their place, fears of communist revolution where still there. In fact since Trotsky was proponent of perpetual revolution, there could be a more justified communist threat, unless Trotsky is playing it safe in this TL.
 
Yeah, if you think killing Hitler kills Nazism, well me and you have some obvious disagreements.

I could agree with you, but I'm only giving the starting PODs with removing the main actors if we said so; if you have some ideas to propone to killing or weakening further Nazism, then post them simply.

How is Trotsky going to lead to no gulags and a revised NEP? The NEP was intended by Lenin to be temporary after the failure of war communism. You would still have prison camps, they might not be gulags, but they would serve the same function.

As for Germany and Italy what happens to the conservative elements? Even if you don't have Fascism and Nazism as formal doctrines, whats to stop alternate right wing ideologies from rising in their place, fears of communist revolution where still there. In fact since Trotsky was proponent of perpetual revolution, there could be a more justified communist threat, unless Trotsky is playing it safe in this TL.

In fact, I don't deny the fact conservative or even reactionary elements could rise still in Italy or Germany, it is a possibility as well.

About the issue of gulags, in the title I claimed them as major element of Stalinism, it is Stalinism to be removed by this scenary. I'm not either enough competent about pre WWII USSR events, so if you have too suggestion I will be glad to see them posted.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now so tomorrow I'll reply to other issues, I hope so to see started this project.
 
I could agree with you, but I'm only giving the starting PODs with removing the main actors if we said so; if you have some ideas to propone to killing or weakening further Nazism, then post them simply.
I meant that in my timeline, Hitler dies at the Beer Hall Putsch.....and in 1975 Nazism is a major force in the world.
 
Trotsky was an opponent, not a proponent of the NEP, and a lot of the Soviet leadership felt similarly, it was slowly giving rise to some of the same issues in terms of corruption, profiteering, and wealth disparity that were an issue during Tsarist times.

Bukharin was effectively the ideological opposite of Trotsky, as he represented the right-wing of the Bolsheviks which favored the NEP, and on top of that he personally hated Trotsky.

I am not honestly sure there is any reasonable PoD that gives Trotsky lasting control of the USSR, he was a poor politician and lacked skill in the development of personal relationships. Stalin knew how to change his stances and make convenient alliances when it was politically wise to do so. Trotsky never compromised his beliefs.

Those aren't the sorts of characteristics that gave a man a long career, or a long life, in the cutthroat world of Soviet politics.
 
Yeah, if one really wants to butterfly Fascism, with a post-1900 POD, you need another radical ideology to replace it in Italy and Germany.

The latter MIGHT get a decent moderate party, but it isn't likely, as there's too much working against them with Versaills, much less the GD happening at some point.

For a better Soviet Union, I suggest turning it into an Oligarchy. Of course, one needs to kill Stalin, but that's normal for this.

And yeah, Trotsky seizing power is the political equivalent of Sealion. McGovern has a higher chance of seizing the Presidency in the U.S. than Trotsky does gaining the high seat in the USSR.
 
I meant that in my timeline, Hitler dies at the Beer Hall Putsch.....and in 1975 Nazism is a major force in the world.

You intrigued me, i'll go to read your TL then.

Trotsky was an opponent, not a proponent of the NEP, and a lot of the Soviet leadership felt similarly, it was slowly giving rise to some of the same issues in terms of corruption, profiteering, and wealth disparity that were an issue during Tsarist times.

Bukharin was effectively the ideological opposite of Trotsky, as he represented the right-wing of the Bolsheviks which favored the NEP, and on top of that he personally hated Trotsky.

I am not honestly sure there is any reasonable PoD that gives Trotsky lasting control of the USSR, he was a poor politician and lacked skill in the development of personal relationships. Stalin knew how to change his stances and make convenient alliances when it was politically wise to do so. Trotsky never compromised his beliefs.

Those aren't the sorts of characteristics that gave a man a long career, or a long life, in the cutthroat world of Soviet politics.

Yeah, if one really wants to butterfly Fascism, with a post-1900 POD, you need another radical ideology to replace it in Italy and Germany.

The latter MIGHT get a decent moderate party, but it isn't likely, as there's too much working against them with Versaills, much less the GD happening at some point.

For a better Soviet Union, I suggest turning it into an Oligarchy. Of course, one needs to kill Stalin, but that's normal for this.

And yeah, Trotsky seizing power is the political equivalent of Sealion. McGovern has a higher chance of seizing the Presidency in the U.S. than Trotsky does gaining the high seat in the USSR.

Do you really think without Nazism or Fascism Italy or Germany will collapse at the time? Or became Communist countries in the end? Nobody supports a possible reinforcement of democracies, for example with the rise of SPD in Germany and the Popular Party or the Socialist Party in Italy? I'm also open to an Imperial restoration, even if is somewhat clichè.

About the possibility of Trotsky to seize the power, this is still a POD anyway. There are at lot of posts where Sealion was achieved or McGovern became President, but if we aim for a more realistic POD then instead of Trotsky we could made win later Bukhanin or Zinoviev... Otherwise, we could use the straight bullet option to Stalin too and then see what will happens next.
 
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