Well, the White political leadership certainly wasn't monarchist, but some of the generals, like Denikin were very much still worshippers of the Romanovs. A Constitutional Monarchy directly after the war is unlikely. It is possible that the Czars are restored as figureheads of the new Junta though.
A White Victory
- Thread starter Stenkarazin
- Start date
Well, the White political leadership certainly wasn't monarchist, but some of the generals, like Denikin were very much still worshippers of the Romanovs. A Constitutional Monarchy directly after the war is unlikely. It is possible that the Czars are restored as figureheads of the new Junta though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Army_of_Komuch
There's a POD there--they advance rather than permitting the Red Army to regroup.
Ok, let's begin. I will finally use the Finnish connection as the easiest and most straight-forward POD, even though I know now that it wasn’t that easy to send Finns to Petrograd. And don’t worry about Oulianov; he will get what he deserves.
« Le désir a embrasé l’esprit du prince et la soif de goûter le Grand Don lui a dissimulé le présage. »
- The tale of Igor’s campaign, French translation.
“There was Sovdepia, the realm of Satan, the beleaguered citadel of Cronos eating his own children”
- Vasily Vitalyevich Shulgin, Leader of the Panrussian Fascist Union, 1931.
During the spring 1919, while Kolchak’s Siberian Armies attacked from the east, Denikin’s South Russian forces moved northwest, liberating the Don from the Red Terror. Their progresses were so swift and easy that at mid-spring Denikin’s forces entered in Ukraine: the red yoke over “Little-Russia” (as White rulers still called it) fell apart with incredible easiness, and soon the better part of Ukraine fell under White authority.
Summer 1919:To the Allies’ utter dismay, the Kolchak offensive has been repelled, and now the Siberian armies are retreating along the Transsiberian. The “Russian Washington” on which the Allies had nurtured so much hope, appears to be a lost bet. The allied governments grow wary of the Intervention, as do their public opinions. But the struggle is far from over. The war is still raging in the South, which has always been the true main front, something that the Allies failed to realize.This is there and now that the fate of Russia will be decided. July 1919 begins, and in a desperate gamble Denikin launches an all-out, three-pronged offensive on Sovdepia, as underlined in the ‘Moscow Directive” of Tsaritsyne (July 3).
Impossible to find a proper map showing Denkin's offensive in details. So we will have to make it do with this one.
September 1919: the White Armies fly from success to success, conquering huge stripes of land. On the eastern flank, the Caucasus Army under General-baron Wrangel is moving along the Volga. On the western flank, the Volunteers Army of Maï-Maievski has severely beaten the Reds in a succession of pitched battles, and progress towards Orel, as does the Cossacks’ Don Army under general Sidorin, which just took Voronej. The big cities of the central Russian plain fall one after another into the hands of the Counter-revolution. The Red Army retreats everywhere, in full disarray. The Sovnarkom has to fetch troops from the Urals front to caulk the breaches. That gives a much needed respite to Kolchak’s forces, which can stabilise the front with a partially successful counter-offensive lead by General Diterikhs. But it is no doubt that the Eastern front is now a secondary theater.
The Whites are winning everywhere, but in fact the Counter-Revolution is sick. They won too much and too quickly, feverishly, like a player who threw his lot with his last card, and now can’t stop playing. The lines are over-extended, the troops scattered across the vast conquests of this summer. On their back, partisans are rising everywhere, Ukraine is going wild, Cossacks are more interested in looting than in fighting, and conscripts are deserting massively. But Moscow is so close. It is just a matter of weeks.
In the northwest, another threat again Sovdepia is coming. To the horrified surprise of the Bolsheviks, General Yudenich and his army of bric-à-brac have managed to reach the suburbs of Petrograd. In a desperate attempt to save the former imperial capital, symbol of the Revolution, Trotsky rushes to Petrograd with what troops the Southern front can spare. The mere arriving of the ‘Great Architect of the Revolution’ has an extraordinary galvanizing effect on the defenders of Petrograd, which successfully repel the first assaults of Yudenich’s minions in early October.
“May God and Russia forgive me for what I’ve done!”
- Nikolaï Nikolaïevitch Yudenich, 5 October 1919
“It was clear that if we had failed, he would have killed himself. There was no turning back.”
- Alexandr Pavlovitch Rodzianko, Yudenich’s aide-de-camp, "From the Imperial Army to the Katorga", 1946, New-York.
After having retreated to the suburban town of Gatchina, Ioudenitch took a step which would change the fate of the Civil War. Thoroughly desperate, he gave up to the entreaties of his lieutenants and telegraphed to the Finnish authorities that he recognized fully and unequivocally the independence of the sovereign State of Finland. To give more weight to his last-minute move, Ioudenitch added to do so, "on behalf of the Supreme Ruler of All Russias, His High Excellency Admiral Kolchak." This was indeed a blatant lie.
When this telegram was deciphered in Helsingborg, it created a huge emotion in political circles. Among the government, many a minister dismissed it as an insincere and desperate gamble from a man who was about to be annihilated by the Bolsheviks. But Marshal Mannerheim and his warmongering supporters were adamant: a deal is a deal, and the White movement just fulfilled its part of the contract. The hatred against Bolshevism, the fear that once the White had been beaten the Reds would turn against Finland, the thirst for blood among the brand-new Finnish officer corps, and last but not least the charisma of Mannerheim do the trick.
On the 10 October, the Finnish government declares war to the Soviet Republic.
Five days after, the Finnish Army enters into Soviet territory, and immediately attacks Petrograd from the north, while the small army of Ioudenitch is doing the same from the west. This time, all the speeches in the world could not save the city. Trotsky and the feckless Zinoviev flee to Moscow by the last train, while their troops are crushed in a succession of heavy and bloody fights around and in the city. The ill-formed Red army units of Petrograd were no match for the Finnish Army. Follow the usual pogroms and massacres, while a half-starved bourgeoisie greets Ioudenitch as its saviour.
Mid-October 1919: After the fall of Petrograd to finno-russian Counter-revolutionaries, Soviet Russia is in deep trouble. The Finnish won’t go any further in Russian territory, but there mere presence in Petrograd is enough to distract a lot of much needed troops from the Southern and Eastern fronts. Hence, the Reds are unable to retake Orel from Maï-Maievski, and they failed to prevent the fall of Toula to Denikin’s Armies, the 20 of October. The loss of Toula, ‘the arsenal of the Revolution’, is a complete disaster for the Sovnarkom: Moscow is virtually defenseless. The recently assembled Konarmia has gone into mutiny, refusing to risk their skins for the “jews” of the Kremlin. Its commandant, Semion Boudienni, declares himself Left SR. On the Eastern front, Kolchak has resumed his advance, at slow pace. Despite its huge flaws, the Counter-revolution is about to win.
1919 - The summer of love
« Le désir a embrasé l’esprit du prince et la soif de goûter le Grand Don lui a dissimulé le présage. »
- The tale of Igor’s campaign, French translation.
“There was Sovdepia, the realm of Satan, the beleaguered citadel of Cronos eating his own children”
- Vasily Vitalyevich Shulgin, Leader of the Panrussian Fascist Union, 1931.
During the spring 1919, while Kolchak’s Siberian Armies attacked from the east, Denikin’s South Russian forces moved northwest, liberating the Don from the Red Terror. Their progresses were so swift and easy that at mid-spring Denikin’s forces entered in Ukraine: the red yoke over “Little-Russia” (as White rulers still called it) fell apart with incredible easiness, and soon the better part of Ukraine fell under White authority.
Summer 1919:To the Allies’ utter dismay, the Kolchak offensive has been repelled, and now the Siberian armies are retreating along the Transsiberian. The “Russian Washington” on which the Allies had nurtured so much hope, appears to be a lost bet. The allied governments grow wary of the Intervention, as do their public opinions. But the struggle is far from over. The war is still raging in the South, which has always been the true main front, something that the Allies failed to realize.This is there and now that the fate of Russia will be decided. July 1919 begins, and in a desperate gamble Denikin launches an all-out, three-pronged offensive on Sovdepia, as underlined in the ‘Moscow Directive” of Tsaritsyne (July 3).
Impossible to find a proper map showing Denkin's offensive in details. So we will have to make it do with this one.
September 1919: the White Armies fly from success to success, conquering huge stripes of land. On the eastern flank, the Caucasus Army under General-baron Wrangel is moving along the Volga. On the western flank, the Volunteers Army of Maï-Maievski has severely beaten the Reds in a succession of pitched battles, and progress towards Orel, as does the Cossacks’ Don Army under general Sidorin, which just took Voronej. The big cities of the central Russian plain fall one after another into the hands of the Counter-revolution. The Red Army retreats everywhere, in full disarray. The Sovnarkom has to fetch troops from the Urals front to caulk the breaches. That gives a much needed respite to Kolchak’s forces, which can stabilise the front with a partially successful counter-offensive lead by General Diterikhs. But it is no doubt that the Eastern front is now a secondary theater.
The Whites are winning everywhere, but in fact the Counter-Revolution is sick. They won too much and too quickly, feverishly, like a player who threw his lot with his last card, and now can’t stop playing. The lines are over-extended, the troops scattered across the vast conquests of this summer. On their back, partisans are rising everywhere, Ukraine is going wild, Cossacks are more interested in looting than in fighting, and conscripts are deserting massively. But Moscow is so close. It is just a matter of weeks.
In the northwest, another threat again Sovdepia is coming. To the horrified surprise of the Bolsheviks, General Yudenich and his army of bric-à-brac have managed to reach the suburbs of Petrograd. In a desperate attempt to save the former imperial capital, symbol of the Revolution, Trotsky rushes to Petrograd with what troops the Southern front can spare. The mere arriving of the ‘Great Architect of the Revolution’ has an extraordinary galvanizing effect on the defenders of Petrograd, which successfully repel the first assaults of Yudenich’s minions in early October.
Stolypin betrayed
“May God and Russia forgive me for what I’ve done!”
- Nikolaï Nikolaïevitch Yudenich, 5 October 1919
“It was clear that if we had failed, he would have killed himself. There was no turning back.”
- Alexandr Pavlovitch Rodzianko, Yudenich’s aide-de-camp, "From the Imperial Army to the Katorga", 1946, New-York.
After having retreated to the suburban town of Gatchina, Ioudenitch took a step which would change the fate of the Civil War. Thoroughly desperate, he gave up to the entreaties of his lieutenants and telegraphed to the Finnish authorities that he recognized fully and unequivocally the independence of the sovereign State of Finland. To give more weight to his last-minute move, Ioudenitch added to do so, "on behalf of the Supreme Ruler of All Russias, His High Excellency Admiral Kolchak." This was indeed a blatant lie.
When this telegram was deciphered in Helsingborg, it created a huge emotion in political circles. Among the government, many a minister dismissed it as an insincere and desperate gamble from a man who was about to be annihilated by the Bolsheviks. But Marshal Mannerheim and his warmongering supporters were adamant: a deal is a deal, and the White movement just fulfilled its part of the contract. The hatred against Bolshevism, the fear that once the White had been beaten the Reds would turn against Finland, the thirst for blood among the brand-new Finnish officer corps, and last but not least the charisma of Mannerheim do the trick.
On the 10 October, the Finnish government declares war to the Soviet Republic.
Five days after, the Finnish Army enters into Soviet territory, and immediately attacks Petrograd from the north, while the small army of Ioudenitch is doing the same from the west. This time, all the speeches in the world could not save the city. Trotsky and the feckless Zinoviev flee to Moscow by the last train, while their troops are crushed in a succession of heavy and bloody fights around and in the city. The ill-formed Red army units of Petrograd were no match for the Finnish Army. Follow the usual pogroms and massacres, while a half-starved bourgeoisie greets Ioudenitch as its saviour.
Mid-October 1919: After the fall of Petrograd to finno-russian Counter-revolutionaries, Soviet Russia is in deep trouble. The Finnish won’t go any further in Russian territory, but there mere presence in Petrograd is enough to distract a lot of much needed troops from the Southern and Eastern fronts. Hence, the Reds are unable to retake Orel from Maï-Maievski, and they failed to prevent the fall of Toula to Denikin’s Armies, the 20 of October. The loss of Toula, ‘the arsenal of the Revolution’, is a complete disaster for the Sovnarkom: Moscow is virtually defenseless. The recently assembled Konarmia has gone into mutiny, refusing to risk their skins for the “jews” of the Kremlin. Its commandant, Semion Boudienni, declares himself Left SR. On the Eastern front, Kolchak has resumed his advance, at slow pace. Despite its huge flaws, the Counter-revolution is about to win.
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I like the start, although I think Trotsky would have a bit more courage than as depicted here.
Wolfpaw
Banned
The best POD is the Battle of Oryol. Have Denikin ignore the Makhnovist raids and proceeded to defeat the Reds. Petrograd falls as the Reds decide not to send reinforcements since the Whites are still on the march to Moscow. Petrograd is sealed up by Yudenich, Miller remains in control of Arkhangelsk, Kolchak is top-dog in Sibera, and Denikin leads the final assault on Moscow. The Reds lose and the Whites are left to decide how to run Russia. All in all, I'd say this is a worse situation than OTL.
The fall of Sovdepia
“And so it was that Philoteus has not lied, for the Third Rome rise again after the storm, brighter and stronger in the hand of God.”
- Father Eremeïev, preach in the Cathedral of Christ-the-Saviour, 24 November 1919.
“That was… ugly.”
- Nikolaï Ivanovitch Bukharin, independent Social-Democrat, 1926.
2nd November 1919: Cossacks have been spotted in the outskirts of Moscow. Bolshevik control over the city is tenuous at best. Nearly dying from starvation, the workers refuse flatly to fight for the soviet regime, and it is doubtful if the few remaining red troops will fight at all. Among the Red officers, there is much talk about ‘handing over Lenin and his clique’ to Denikin. The members of the Party prepare themselves to go undercover. Lenin is still at the Kremlin, talking of dying in the battle, while Trotsky has vanished three days ago, as do more and more preeminent Bolsheviks, while some others try to woo Moscow bourjouis in a desperate attempt to save their lives. Stalin, Djerzhinsky, Antonov and others have fled the Capital in a desperate attempt to reach the Turkestan, from where, they believe, the struggle can be continued.
4 November 1919: Left SR’s who had previously rallied the Bolsheviks associate with their clandestine comrades of the SR party and throw a coup against the dying Bolshevik régime, which is easily ousted without any serious resistance. Lenin and all remaining Bolsheviks are put under arrest, while a hastily assembled SR Committee takes power. Its first political act is to send a delegation to Denikin’s GQ.
10 November 1919: The delegates of the Committee had little to bargain, and indeed they obtained little but their own lives. Following the agreement with Denikin, the Committee is to dissolve itself after having handed its prisoners over. In return, Denikin promises that there will be no bloodshed. Besides his vague promises to call a Constituent Assembly, that’s all the Left SR’s can get. In the same night, Lenin mysteriously escapes his jail and disappears. One cannot exclude Left SR complicities.
11 November 1919: At last, the White armies enter in Moscow. This is the end of a long nightmare for Russia, that’s what Denikin writes in its proclamation. Well, some may have to disagree. Namely the victims of the violent repression undergone by White troops as soon as they arrive in Moscow. Despite strict orders from Denikin, hundreds of Bolsheviks or left-sympathizers are summarily executed. Kamenev, Kollontaï, Sverdlov, Schmidt, and many others are executed by rifle squad, not without being cruelly tortured. Lucky for them, Bukharin and Zinoviev are miraculously saved from a certain death by the intervention of Left-KD Oustrialov.
14 November 1919: End of the story for Lev Davidovitch Bronstein, aka Trotsky. Travelling under the disguise of a German POW, he is unlucky enough to tumble into one of his former Menshevik comrades in Smolensk, who unmasks him and, without any consideration of socialist solidarity, denounces him to the White forces of Bulak-Balachovich who has just arrived in the city. After a mock trial presided by a former tsarist judge, Trotsky is shot without any ceremony.
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Maybe. I wouldn't be definitive about that. Depends on what your pay attention: the borders of the White Russia compared to the Red one OTL, the civic freedoms, the economy, or any other aspect.
That was quick. Just how fragile were the Bolsheviks? They did control Russia's industrial core and had a lot of PR points from claiming the Whites were puppets of foreign invaders.
Also, much of the Red Army was commanded by Czarist officers whose families were held hostage by the Bolsheviks. With Red Army units outright mutinying or switching sides, I can easily imagine a lot of hostages being killed and then vengeance being taken on the killers all across Russia.
Also, much of the Red Army was commanded by Czarist officers whose families were held hostage by the Bolsheviks. With Red Army units outright mutinying or switching sides, I can easily imagine a lot of hostages being killed and then vengeance being taken on the killers all across Russia.
Yes, you're right ! I totally forgot about a last Red terror before the city fell ! It would have been better that the Left SR uprising scenario.
I will try to catch up with that by using Stalin and his cronies...
I guess that, yes, there are still bolshevik areas even after the fall of Moscow, but I reckon that we could hardly talk about organized resistance at that point, more of partizanchtchina.
I will try to catch up with that by using Stalin and his cronies...
I guess that, yes, there are still bolshevik areas even after the fall of Moscow, but I reckon that we could hardly talk about organized resistance at that point, more of partizanchtchina.
Why was that letter deciphered in Helsingborg of all places??
Will we see a Polish- Russian war? I guess both are trying to establish some kind of dominance over Ukraine and Belarus. While Russia pretty much will get the eastern parts and Poland the western parts, all things in between would probably be contested.
Will we see a Polish- Russian war? I guess both are trying to establish some kind of dominance over Ukraine and Belarus. While Russia pretty much will get the eastern parts and Poland the western parts, all things in between would probably be contested.
Why was that letter deciphered in Helsingborg of all places??
Will we see a Polish- Russian war? I guess both are trying to establish some kind of dominance over Ukraine and Belarus. While Russia pretty much will get the eastern parts and Poland the western parts, all things in between would probably be contested.
Helsingborg... ? Oh shit I meant Helsingfors !
Yes there will definitely have a Polish-Russian war, and the outcome may be quite different, since White Russia will be facing more internal problems than Red Russia OTL.
Well, the Finnish name Helsinki is usually used in English texts. Helsingfors is the Swedish name of the city.Helsingborg... ? Oh shit I meant Helsingfors !
MSZ
Banned
Well, the war certainly went through very fast, being over in just a year, the Whites winning despite no (at least, not mentioned) extra Entente help, alliance with only Finland and no extra support from the local populations. Perhaps you could elaborate a little what made Denikin's offensive against Moscow so successful, other than Red Army troops being withdrawn from the south to aid defending Petrogorod?
And where's the Czech Legion. You just don't do White Russia TLs without the Czech Legion.
The Czechs are not playing a relevant role any more. They are slowly retreating towards Vladivostok, and they would definitely not do more than the task entrusted upon them by the Allies: protecting the Transsiberian in order to maintain the supplies line open.
And honestly, I don't think this is as implausible as you may think. Once Petrograd and Orel have fallen (the same week), things can be pretty swift.
But I admit that I could have developed more the battles of the Southern front. Maybe too eager to get to the 'new régime' stuff. My bad !
Yes, you're probably right... but as a matter of fact there is virtually no way that Denikin could get more support from the local populations. So the only way to get through this and get a White victory is to have a quick victory. If Denikin wouldn't win in October 1919, he would never win (Makhno, partizanchtchina, the Red Army rebuilding, etc.)
And honestly, I don't think this is as implausible as you may think. Once Petrograd and Orel have fallen (the same week), things can be pretty swift.
But I admit that I could have developed more the battles of the Southern front. Maybe too eager to get to the 'new régime' stuff. My bad !
MSZ
Banned
Yes, you're probably right... but as a matter of fact there is virtually no way that Denikin could get more support from the local populations. So the only way to get through this and get a White victory is to have a quick victory. If Denikin wouldn't win in October 1919, he would never win (Makhno, partizanchtchina, the Red Army rebuilding, etc.)
And honestly, I don't think this is as implausible as you may think. Once Petrograd and Orel have fallen (the same week), things can be pretty swift.
But I admit that I could have developed more the battles of the Southern front. Maybe too eager to get to the 'new régime' stuff. My bad !
Hey, no problem, nothing bad happened. I get that you want the whites to take over ASAP and deal with "how White Russia affects the world/Europe". You could have it that Denikin and Kolchak lost political significance within the white movement after Yudenich taking Petersburg - the capital of Russia - where he quickly created a "Russian government" which in turn got recognition from the entente, making the other white generals just go along with it (due to some British/French pressure as well, the west seeing Yudenich as more down to earth, easier to work with and more likely to pay off Russia's debts), believing that anything Yudenich/the Petersburg government does will be possible to change after the war. Then this "Russian government" issues some kind of proclamation to the people promising land reforms or something that kept people away from the bolsheviks. Or Yudenich coming to an agreement with the Poles as well, who moved into the Ukraine suppressing Machno and trying to install Petlura in his place, allowing Denikin to push northwards with all his forces.
Anyway, if the war with the Reds is over by 1919, that means Russia still has a chance to get to the negotiations table regarding Hungary and Turkey - Trianon and Sevres being singned only in 1920. Or is the war still ongoing in some significant part in Siberia?
What about emerging countries?
The Cossacks declared independence OTL, I guess in this TL they just might declare autonomy. The same goes for the Idel- Ural State, although that one could be hard for the Russians to swallow.
But the Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Khiva, Bukhara, the Kazakhs and the Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus would definitely declare independence as OTL. And I guess the Russian reaction won't be pretty.
The Cossacks declared independence OTL, I guess in this TL they just might declare autonomy. The same goes for the Idel- Ural State, although that one could be hard for the Russians to swallow.
But the Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Khiva, Bukhara, the Kazakhs and the Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus would definitely declare independence as OTL. And I guess the Russian reaction won't be pretty.
Not to mention the fact that among with Finland, also the three Baltic states would have to negotiate with (or be crushed by) the White Russians to clarify their position in regards to this new (old) Russia. Estonian troops, for example, would have supported the taking of Petrograd themselves in the fall of 1919.
Personally, I wouldn't mind getting an account of the "alt-Tartu" talks where the borders of Finland and Russia are negotiated. That would have been fairly... interesting. No idea, though, what Mannerheim has been promised. But given the zeal Finland fought with, it will have to include Petsamo and parts of Eastern Karelia at least.
Yes. Finland won't definitely leave Petrograd with just a greeting card from Yudenich. Let's not forget that Yudenich grip over the former capital is utterly dependent of the Finnish troops, so they have a big leverage.
The Baltic States are probably starting to be anxious (even Estonia): they know that White Russia is, to say the least, not altogether happy about their independence. Not to mention that there are still some warlords or semi-independent generals wandering in the area, like Bulak-Balakowicz or Bermondt-Avalov. They might go for a coup.
And let's not forget Semionov's Transbaïkalia, Japanese in Far Eastern, commotions in Turkestan, etc.
I will deal with all the periphery issues (as you said there is a crapload of them) and the internal situation in a big "Etat des lieux" soon as possible.
The Baltic States are probably starting to be anxious (even Estonia): they know that White Russia is, to say the least, not altogether happy about their independence. Not to mention that there are still some warlords or semi-independent generals wandering in the area, like Bulak-Balakowicz or Bermondt-Avalov. They might go for a coup.
And let's not forget Semionov's Transbaïkalia, Japanese in Far Eastern, commotions in Turkestan, etc.
I will deal with all the periphery issues (as you said there is a crapload of them) and the internal situation in a big "Etat des lieux" soon as possible.
But Semionov's state happened because the Whites were so hard pressed. That won't happen OTL. Also, there's Mongolia. Will the Chinese occupy it or are some Russian general sent there to liberate them (like Sternberg did OTL).