A white empress of China?

I once suggested on the Kaiserreich forums of a scenario where Puyi, a German puppet (KR has... an interesting fate for China) marries a German princess. They said it would basically get the Mandate of Heaven revoked for him and the Qing toppling very fast due to public outcry.

Was that assessment accurate? Would a Chinese emperor (late 1800s as well I suppose) marrying a non-Chinese cause such vast scandal?
 
In theory, the problem is specially more the culture than the race...

A'barbarian', even 'cooked', remains a non-Han.

And this add this issue..
 
In theory, the problem is specially more the culture than the race...

A'barbarian', even 'cooked', remains a non-Han.

And this add this issue..

In case you forgot, Puyi was not ever considered Han, not now and not then.

I feel like, in reality, this would have little effect on the vast majority of Chinese citizens and might escape their notice, so I don't see why the Qing would topple over what amounts to a minor issue for them. Though this doesn't quite describe the Late Qing period, I'm sure that the Chinese people could be placated by favorable harvests and good governments.

On the other hand, the people who actually control the government in China, like the ministers and members of the extended imperial family, might be more upset and take umbrage. Like, if you want an 1880s marriage between a German princess and the Chinese Emperor, you'll have to remove Cixi first.

So, while I doubt that the reign of a Chinese Emperor who marries a foreigner will last very long, I don't necessarily see a toppling of the Qing Dynasty as a whole.
 
In case you forgot, Puyi was not ever considered Han, not now and not then.

I feel like, in reality, this would have little effect on the vast majority of Chinese citizens and might escape their notice, so I don't see why the Qing would topple over what amounts to a minor issue for them. Though this doesn't quite describe the Late Qing period, I'm sure that the Chinese people could be placated by favorable harvests and good governments.

On the other hand, the people who actually control the government in China, like the ministers and members of the extended imperial family, might be more upset and take umbrage. Like, if you want an 1880s marriage between a German princess and the Chinese Emperor, you'll have to remove Cixi first.

So, while I doubt that the reign of a Chinese Emperor who marries a foreigner will last very long, I don't necessarily see a toppling of the Qing Dynasty as a whole.

I know well, the Qing where Manchus, and so they never got much popular.
 
It would be far easier to just have it be a "white" Empress by reclassiffying races again. For a while they said the Japanese were white, though I wouldn't doubt it in comparison to the tanned Portuguese sailors.
 
Puyi was in charge of Jack and Shyte, and Jack left town.

The guy was irrelevant, the mandate of Heaven was gone before he was born. It did't matter who he married, his heir would not be Emperor.

A generation or two earlier and it would be a different matter. I don't think a foreign Empress would cost the Emperor all that much. Though I would think ensuring his heir is going to be part Han Chinese would be more politically astute.
 
The general theme for China's masses has been "food on the table, everything's fine" for pretty much recorded history. In a time of stability, an emperor taking a foreign devil as empress would have certainly sent a lot of tongues flapping, but if she was fluent in Chinese language and culture, I don't see much trouble coming out of it all. Of course, the Victorian era was anything but a time of stability for China...
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
It would go over very, very poorly. The Son of Heaven having a barbarian concubine would be scandalous enough. For comparison, this would go over about as well as Queen Victoria marrying a Zulu.
 
It would go over very, very poorly. The Son of Heaven having a barbarian concubine would be scandalous enough. For comparison, this would go over about as well as Queen Victoria marrying a Zulu.

Again, all of the Qing Dynasty Emperors, and all of the Yuan Dynasty ones, and a few Tang ones, had barbarian concubines, and this was not so big a deal.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Again, all of the Qing Dynasty Emperors, and all of the Yuan Dynasty ones, and a few Tang ones, had barbarian concubines, and this was not so big a deal.
Steppe nomads were considered a different sort of barbarian than Europeans due to the long and intertwined history of the Steppe and the Middle Kingdom. Steppe nomads were considered by (some) Chinese to be capable of civilization; Europeans not so much.
 
Steppe nomads were considered a different sort of barbarian than Europeans due to the long and intertwined history of the Steppe and the Middle Kingdom. Steppe nomads were considered by (some) Chinese to be capable of civilization; Europeans not so much.

Source? I don't ever recall any evidence that Chinese people accepted steppe nomads as better barbarians, hence the reports of the literati committing suicide in order to resist Manchu and Mongol invaders. If anything, by this time China was more willing to learn and accept European ways than from the steppe nomads, which they accepted essentially zero cultural influences from (I think the queue is a rare exception).
 
I think the idea of a "Yellow man" defiling a white german princess would be just as upsetting.

Probably a German Prince going "rouge" and marrying a Chinese Princess while they are young *true love or farsight*, and her eventually empress with him holding de-facto power.
 
I once suggested on the Kaiserreich forums of a scenario where Puyi, a German puppet (KR has... an interesting fate for China) marries a German princess. They said it would basically get the Mandate of Heaven revoked for him and the Qing toppling very fast due to public outcry.

Was that assessment accurate? Would a Chinese emperor (late 1800s as well I suppose) marrying a non-Chinese cause such vast scandal?

And which German Princess in the 19th century do you seriously think is going to marry a Non White, Non European, Non Christian, Emperor or no Emperor! Any German Princess in such a situation would feel humiliated and appalled, her parents would be scorned by every other royal house, their entire family shamed to the detriment of the prospects of the rest of the family.

In the 1890s Kaiser Wilhelm had a holy fit when his sister the Crown Princess of Greece converted to Greek Orthodoxy, a decade later many British Anglicans were appalled when Ena of Battenburg converted to become a Catholic. These are marriages within Christianity.

Lets not even get started on the racial aspects, Germany and Britain saw colonialism as their duty to civilise the non white populations of the world, not to marry and integrate with them but to dominate and control them.

The idea of any 19th century European royal marrying a non Christian pre world war one is inconcievable.
 
I think the idea of a "Yellow man" defiling a white german princess would be just as upsetting.

Probably a German Prince going "rouge" and marrying a Chinese Princess while they are young *true love or farsight*, and her eventually empress with him holding de-facto power.

Damn you for giving me this ( completely awesome ) image of a Prussian China with all those shinny Pickelhauben ...

Although this means WAR! with Japan at least ...

PD: Can the Chinese display Bismark mustaches with them? Or is too much?
 

scholar

Banned
I know well, the Qing where Manchus, and so they never got much popular.
They did become popular, and were mostly tolerated. Nearing their last century of existence, however, they lagged behind the outside world, ruined international prestige, and allowed 'round-eyed devils' to have authority above and beyond the Emperor, ruler of all of Tianxia. This is what caused their unpopularity and their subsequent fall.
 
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