A "What-If" British Motor Industry Scenario

Iaccoca is, among other American car builders, a sultan supreme of badge engineering. I mean, damn.

Below, the K Car, in a few of its variations,

Badge engineering from the modern perspective seems a little self-defeating but if applied to the sheer number of marques inherited by BLMC means badge engineering is needed to make the company work better.

The more I think of it the more I think Volkswagen AG's organization is the best OTL scenario for BLMC.

Austin could be the basic flagship (Volkswagen). Triumph is the more upscale luxury models (Audi). Rover can stay on with the Land and Rover. Mini can stay seperate wih the X9 and Cooper. Jaguar is solid but can run full luxury and sport gambit. The Jaguar "Sprite" can be reintroduced...

Despite some of the statements, the '69 to '75 era has a lot of potential in my opinion. With the proper influences, BL could be made into a well-streamlined machine, but it may take a political POD to fight the trade union fight earlier... Maybe a barbara castle POD is needed...
 
Have to admit I don't know an awful lot about Reliant but that looks a very tidy design, you can really see the Citroen in it!

Rolls could well have been swallowed up by BMC had those collaboration projects come to fruition. This wouldn't have prevented BMC's slow demise and Rolls would probably have been sold off as the parent company's troubles mounted.

Alvis is a really good WI, had Rover's P6BS prototype made it into production it's likely it would have been given an Alvis badge, I did see an ATL on the AR Online site of a surviving LMC that had Alvis developing into a super car brand, a sort of British Ferrari or Lamborghini. That would have been very interesting to see!

Even though Reliant is considered the butt of all jokes due to its 3-wheelers, I can actually see it becoming a successful part of a hypothetical 4th largest carmaker in the UK as a budget / mainstream / possibly sporty brand producing both 3 and 4 wheeled cars.

Fwiw, the Volvo Tundra Bertone concept looks like its the missing link between the Reliant FW11 and the Citroen BX though some also believe the stillborn rwd Triumph SD2 is connected somehow in terms of styling.

Can see what you mean regarding Rolls Royce and BMC (despite the coupe models being very appealing), though I prefer the Rover P6BS evolving into the Rover P9 instead of an Alvis as the P9 would have built upon the reputation of the Rover P6 V8 and served as Rover's range-topper though they could still call it the Rover Alvis, since naming after an ultra low-volume luxury brand on its own would have been very risky.
 
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The Oncoming Storm's ideas are excellent and make a lot of sense, but there are still a number of problems. The major reliability problems (the gearbox problems with the Maxi, the Stag's horrible V8 engines, electrical problems, corrosion) haven't been handled here, and while that product list is much better, it does not solve the many problems BMH had. It was dying by 1968, and while the engineers were not fools, the management wasn't good, the incredibly-militant workforce is a big problem, antiquated facilities (and poor siting) are an issue and there is no way in hell you will get Tony Benn to accept tens of thousands of layoffs at BMH at the time when the Wilson Government was promoting the "affluent society" and Benn himself sees the option of forcing BMH and LMC to merge as a solution to BMH's problems.

You need a wholesale revamp of what happens there, which to be blunt simply isn't possible in the 1960s and 1970s because of government interference and industrial action. You can fight all ya like, but such huge reductions in workforce will ultimately collapse the company as the workers will end up on strike for months on end, and they are also likely to really not a give a crap about what they were doing. The Iacocca idea is interesting, though I don't think Lee would ever be hired by a British car company that is falling apart, and Chrysler laid off thirty thousand workers during Iacocca's first few years, which in 1970s Britain simply isn't possible for a company in BL's position. You need things going earlier than that.

I think the best bet, honestly, is to see BMH fail earlier, and LMC simply refuse to get involved. Leyland had the ability to survive and prosper, whereas BMH needed a lot of help. (This still requires getting Benn out of the way, which is a big job in itself.) BMH declares bankruptcy in 1969, and the Wilson government bails them out conditional on them finding help. If you want Iacocca in this, now is where to do it - say he gets fired over the mess with the Pinto and license-badged Mazdas. He gets hired by the crumbling BMH in 1972 and begins the process of rebuilding.

The Oncoming Storm's idea of Morris as the volume car brand and Austin as the more trendsetting, avant-garde car brand makes a lot of sense and Iacocca was a king of badge-engineering. We could also have the idea of the Mini-Max, which was in gestation by the mid-1970s, come to BMH with Iacocca and his associates. Lots of BMH's old workforce is loudly against the idea of a group of Americans running the company, but the work goes on in any case. Jaguar is sold off in 1974 to oil company owner Victor Gauntlett in order to help raise capital. By 1975, BMH has been reduced to the Morris, Austin and MG, with Austin-Healey under Austin, Vanden Plas as a trim level and Riley and Wolseley gone altogether. The Marina and Allegro are still regarded as poor cars, but a series of new products are produced by BMH in the latter half of the 1970s, and in 1980 the Austin Voyager hits the scene, creating the modern MPV.

The problems of the competing Austin and Morris brands see the latter phased out in the latter half of the 1970s and early 1980s. The Maxi is replaced by the Austin Genesis (a better Maestro) in 1978, while the Allegro is replaced with the second-generation Allegro, which is front-wheel-drive, in 1980, while the angular MG Chaser sports car is introduced in 1981 to replace the loved but obsolescent MGB and the Austin Voyager is a massive hit right from the start. The 1983 Renault Espace is a rushed response to the Voyager. Iacocca is also well aware of the Mini's being a status symbol, and the 1982 Austin Metro replaces most versions of the Mini, leaving the Cooper version to become a symbol over time, which the Mini does very well through the 1980s. By 1983, BMC is back to flying high, and they aim to return the luxury car markets, though this happens in the years to come. Iacocca leaves BMC to take over Chrysler Corporation in 1984, but he leaves behind a completely-rebuilt company which, despite its production being half of its 1960s output, is still a quite profitable company and a major export earner for the UK.

Leyland, by contrast, goes from strength to strength in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Triumph is a sporting brand of sports sedans and sports cars, with the excellent TR series of sports cars being the flagships until the introduction of the Stag in 1970. The Stag's original 3.0-liter V8 fails miserably in testing and as such the Stag goes with the proven 3.5-liter Rover V8. The Stag engine, however, doesn't die - after extensive development, it reappears in 3.4-liter form in a British version of the Leyland P76, which appears in Britain in 1973 using the same 16-valve cylinder head as the Dolomite Sprint. Rover's long-selling (and highly-successful) P6 is replaced by the SD1 in 1975, which is one of the best-selling European luxury sedans of the 1970s and 1980s. The TR7 is introduced in 1975 with an electronically-fuel injected version of the Triumph straight-six, making 152 horsepower, along with the Dolomite Sprint's awesome 16-valve four-cylinder engine as an option and convertible versions available right from the start, with the Triumph-Leyland V8 first appearing in the car in four-liter form in the 1978 TR8, which is at launch one of the fastest cars of its time made in the UK. The Land Rover Range Rover, introduced in 1970, adds to the list of great cars produced by LMC in the 1970s. They are not immune to the industrial unrest that plagued Britain in the 1970s, but they see much less of it than the horribly-troubled BMH.

The 1970s prosperity of Leyland and the reorganization (and subsequent success in the 1980s) of BMC was added to by Britain's long list of smaller makers, which got turned somewhat on its head in 1978, thanks to Chrysler's huge financial problems. Reliant, which had been moving on with the building of the infamous three-wheeled economy cars and then with the much-better Scimitar sports coupe, entered into the real car world with the luxurious Reliant Ambassador luxury sedan (OOC: The FW11) in 1978, followed by buying pieces from the remains of Chrysler Europe and Peugeot sold them off in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1983, Reliant was producing four cars - the supermini Kitten, the small-mid size Sunbeam (the design of which was bought from Peugeot-Citroen in 1981), the handsome Scimitar and the large sedan Ambassador - and all were selling, to the point that by 1983 Reliant was the third-largest automaker based in Britain behind BMH (which always remained #1) and Leyland. Reliant's success and the continued success of their cars sees the Scimitar replaced in 1986 with the Reliant Princess (OOC: No Leyland Princess in this world) and the Kitten grow the "Atomic Kitten" high-performance hatchback in 1983.

Jaguar and Aston Martin, both owned by Pace Petroleum owner Victor Gauntlett, grew through the 1980s as well, as Aston Martin sank badly to the point that the company nearly fell apart in the early 1980s. Gauntlett, however, was such a level of enthusiast that he sold off Pace Petroleum to help fund Jaguar and Aston Martin's improvements, and brought on board several big investors in the 1980s, including Microsoft co-founded Paul Allen. Gauntlett's efforts also saw him promote his car companies incessantly, and Allen, who rapidly became an enthusiast for automobiles during his time involved at Jaguar Aston Martin, also being involved. Michael Edwardes joined Jaguar Aston Martin in 1985, and the team now in place grew to become very successful indeed. Allen and Gauntlett's personal pushing led to the development of the Jaguar XJ220 and Aston Martin DB7 in the late 1980s, while the continual improvement of the Jaguar passenger car line in the 1980s led to increasing sales for the company.

By 1990, while the Thatcher era saw manufacturing job losses in the millions, it in fact saw auto industry employment increase. BMH's 1980s successes were an example of a stunning turnaround, and by 1990 the British car industry could rightly boast that the Rover SD1, Triumph 3500, Jaguar XJ6 and Reliant Princess luxury sedans were the best in the world, while the Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit and its Bentley Continental sibling never not had the ability to claim that. Reliant scored a huge coup when they began selling the Reliant Kitten in India in 1984, with the Ashok Kitten being the natural sales rival for the Maruti 800 in India - and the Kitten, long considered the more fun car of the two to drive, turned out to be the more popular of the two cars, selling over one and a half million models in India between 1984 and when it was phased out in 2005. While the 1980s were a good time, Jaguar Aston Martin needed financial help and Reliant faced problems with aging models.

Well aware that Reliant had bought most of the Chrysler Europe, it was perhaps more than a little ironic that when Chrysler sought to return to Europe in the late 1980s, they chose to do so by buying Reliant outright, which they did in January 1992, where Reliant became Chrysler Britain. Reliant may have lost its position as an independent company - but that didn't mean anything, as Chrysler retained its entire workforce, and several of the cars Chrysler developed in the 1990s for worldwide markets began their lives on the design boards at Reliant's extensive facilities in England's West Midlands. Likewise, GM's expanding of operations in Europe in the 1980s meant that GM got more involved, and their purchase of Lotus in 1987 allowed the Hethel-based company to develop a series of excellent new cars in the early 1990s - and led to rumors of GM looking to purchase Jaguar Aston Martin.

That didn't happen - instead, Jaguar Aston Martin got a massive cash injection from Peugeot Citroen in 1992, allowing the company to develop the new Jaguar X300-series XJ and the S250-series XS mid-sized sedan, followed by the BMW and Triumph-baiting XF sedan, which entered production in 1998.

TBC....
 
Wow, that is good.

BMH could develop the X9 Mini with the extra capital of selling Jag, saving it for another generation.

Iacocca was keen for partnership with Honda at Ford, likely he tries that in the Uk as well. Maybe the Civic is rebranded as an Austin car while Honda sells Minis Converted to 550cc as a Kei car with with the change in '75, I think?

The Austin Riley (after the small and sporty, but defunct, Riley Motor marque). The Austin Riley vs. Rover SD1 puts the UK aheard of the hatchback car, and maybe one of them invents the hot hatback, preempting the Volkswagen Golf GTI invasion, and holds better market share.

Leyland also already had its foot in the door in India since the '40s with Leyland Ashoka. They really need to exploit this.

Another possibility is either BMH or Leyland partnership with AMC in the 80s instead of Renault, maybe Land Rovers through Jeep as a more upscale, luxury edition.

I'd really like somebody to save the Jensen brand, maybe resell it in the US/Australia as more of a muscle car. BMH picks up the brand in '76, and in early '80s through AMC introduces the Jensen Interceptor (AMC Interceptor across the pond) with the FF package basically, with 4WD, etc.

Edit: Maybe BMH picks up Jensen and Leyland pics up Healey as their "sports division", equivalent to quattro GmbH for Audi, M for BMW or AMG 'skunkworks' for Mercedes-Benz.

Also - the Reliant Robin will never, ever be a good idea:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bIn_ZgHJaE
 
TheMann

What happened to Rootes during that time in your scenario? Were they simply absorbed by Chrysler to form Chrysler Europe?

Also the Allegro was fwd from the outset.


Whanztastic

Apparently a potential scenario involves BMC saving German carmaker Borgward (gaining the technology of the latter, like air-suspension and 16 valves while their Flat-4 would go on to be copied by Subaru for their Flat-4 engines), while BL could have tied up with Renault instead of Honda.

If the history of Innocenti is any indication, BL could have also tied up with Daihatsu.

I agree with you on the 3-wheel Reliants though they could either sell them to the developing world where safety is not an issue or switch the 3-wheel layout so 2-wheels are at the front and the third wheel is at the back.

BMC / Borgward - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/essays/essay-borgward-and-bmc/ and http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/essays/essay-could-bmc-have-saved-borgward/
BL / Renault - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/essays/essay-laffaire-renault/
 
I agree with you on the 3-wheel Reliants though they could either sell them to the developing world where safety is not an issue...
The problem with that though is aside from safety being less of an issue the transport infrastructure is also rather less developed. On bad roads 3-wheel Robin Rreliants are going to be just awful. Even switching things around isn't going to help all that much I think.
 
Even switching things around isn't going to help all that much I think.


The 2-front 1-rear (or "Tadpole") layout is far more stable in braking turns compared to the 1-front 2-rear (or "Delta") layout, but remains more prone to overturning in normal turns compared to an equivalent four-wheeled vehicle, unless the center of mass is lower and/or further forward though in the case of Reliant, they could engineer the 3-wheel Reliants as a more safer tilting-three-wheeler similar to the mercedes-benz f300 life-jet concept and from there it would be their choice whether to make them front-engined fwd or rear-engined fwd. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_three-wheeler

For Reliant, I am thinking along the lines of an upscaled 4-seater version of the 3-wheeled Campagna T-Rex, Aptera 2 Series and Volkswagen Scooter. - http://www.allcarindex.com/auto-car-model/Germany-Volkswagen-Scooter/
 
Wow, that is good.

BMH could develop the X9 Mini with the extra capital of selling Jag, saving it for another generation.

Yes, the capital from selling Jaguar could be used for this purpose, but BMH really needed to sink down to the point where the unions and the government realized that it had to be massively pared back.

Iacocca was keen for partnership with Honda at Ford, likely he tries that in the Uk as well. Maybe the Civic is rebranded as an Austin car while Honda sells Minis Converted to 550cc as a Kei car with with the change in '75, I think?

I was more thinking Honda and BMH pair up on engine development and some platforms than the same cars. The Triumph Acclaim was a Honda Accord with a few bodywork changes, and it is widely considered to be the machine that killed Triumph as a car maker. The Mini being sold in Japan by Honda is a neat idea, though, as Honda withdrew from the kei car market in 1974 and the Mini could easily be used as a replacement for the Honda Z using the 550cc engine from the Z. I can the chassis from the 1976 Accord also being used for a smaller sedan, though with BMC engines and bodywork.

The Austin Riley (after the small and sporty, but defunct, Riley Motor marque). The Austin Riley vs. Rover SD1 puts the UK aheard of the hatchback car, and maybe one of them invents the hot hatback, preempting the Volkswagen Golf GTI invasion, and holds better market share.

I was thinking for that a version of the Allegro (which here will be a hatchback car from the start) will get a quad-carb 1.7-liter version of the E-series engine in a higher performance version starting in about 1973. (Easy way to justify this would be to want to beat up on the Triumph Dolomite Sprint, which was dominating British Touring Car racing at the time.) The resulting car also gets improved suspension and four-wheel-disc brakes, and ends up being the first British "hot hatchback", and thus spends the 1970s rivalling the Volkswagen Golf, which is smaller and slower.

Leyland also already had its foot in the door in India since the '40s with Leyland Ashoka. They really need to exploit this.

I'm not sure what to do about this, namely because while Leyland's Indian subsidiaries could surely have great success in the commercial vehicle market, Leyland's cars tend towards the more expensive and BMC would surely be well set for India, especially since BMC also makes parts for the Indian car industry both IOTL and ITTL.

Another possibility is either BMH or Leyland partnership with AMC in the 80s instead of Renault, maybe Land Rovers through Jeep as a more upscale, luxury edition.

I'd really like somebody to save the Jensen brand, maybe resell it in the US/Australia as more of a muscle car. BMH picks up the brand in '76, and in early '80s through AMC introduces the Jensen Interceptor (AMC Interceptor across the pond) with the FF package basically, with 4WD, etc.

I can see a few problems with this, namely that AMC required huge investment by the late 1970s, which BMH simply didn't have ITTL as it was spending out the nose for R&D. I can see an alliance between them happening in the late 1970s to allow the BMH small cars to be sold in Europe to largely replace AMC's antiquated lineup and to have the Jeep Cherokee sold in Europe as a rival to the Land Rover. (The original Cherokee is not a Range Rover competitor, but BMH money in the 1980s may speed up the Grand Cherokee idea, and that would be a Range Rover competitor.)

BMH might be able to pick up the Jensen name in the early 1980s produce a new Interceptor then, but it would require the use of AMC engines, which aren't the best. If one is gonna revive Jensen, the best way to do it would be to develop a good new high-performance engine (or hire someone to do it - John Judd, perhaps?) and take a modified version of the Interceptor body, a better four-wheel-drive system and this new engine and sell it as a serious GT car, made by Jensen in the West Midlands and an AMC version made by them in the United States.

Edit: Maybe BMH picks up Jensen and Leyland pics up Healey as their "sports division", equivalent to quattro GmbH for Audi, M for BMW or AMG 'skunkworks' for Mercedes-Benz.

I was looking at Healey as having been worked into Austin, with the Austin 4000 sports car (with the Rolls-Royce-developed engine from earlier in the thread) being sold from 1968 until 1975. The dated 4000 is doomed by Jem Marsh's arrival at BMH in 1976, who works on all of the cars BMH has and is working on but asks for the company to buy back the Marcos name and eventually build Marcos cars as part of BMH. This comes to pass with the first Marcos Mantula under BMH being produced in 1979 and the awesome Marcos Avenger supercar being introduced in 1982. (OOC: The Avenger is similar in design language to the Mantis XP sports racer of the 1960s, though with an aluminum chassis, kevlar body and with the Judd-BMH V8 engine for power. Think the similarity the 1960s Ford GT40 and the 2000s Ford GT have in design ideas and you get the picture.) The Marcos "chassis labs" and Judd's "engine labs" in Warwickshire are the in-house tuners for BMH products, and the Avenger goes on to a 1980s style icon.
 
Bringing up the BMC / LMC Collaboration scenario from the 1960s to 1970s, I’ve been thinking along the following lines below, though the sharing of engines outside of the following collaborations might continue until around the 1980s.

BMC / LMC Collaborations:

ADO15 – Mini: Both BMC and LMC versions could be powered by A-Series engines, though the LMC Mini could potentially be powered by an engine range spawned from the Morris / Nuffield 918cc OHV engine that originally powered the Wolseley Eight and was an update of the 918cc Side-Valve from the original Morris Minor, which was said to have been an in-house rival to the A-Series with the same potential as the latter.

BMC’s Mini replacement would be the alternate 9X from the original city-car sized Mini prototype that was smaller and more spacious (as well as cheaper to produce) to an alternate supermini-sized “Midi” that sits between its smaller Mini-replacement brother and the larger alternate Allegro, with both Mini and Midi being powered by either updated A-Series or the much lighter 9X/DX engines. With the Midi later being replaced by their version of the alternate A-Series or 9X/DX powered ADO88 / Metro, while the 9X Mini soldiers on in updated form.

LMC’s Mini would be replaced by the "Barrel Car" Mini or soldier on in updated form under the Morris-badge similar to OTL (in both original and alternate Clubman-nosed/rebodied form) though a rebodied Mini would also be sold under the Innocenti-badge, while a hastily produced rival to the BMC Midi called the Morris Mayfly / Innocenti Mayfair would be built based on a truncated ADO16 platform with styling being derived from ADO22 with elements of the Mini Clubman, powered by Morris OHV/E-Series engines.

The Morris Mayfly / Innocenti Mayfair would later be replaced with their version of the alternate E/S-Series powered ADO88 (called the Morris Minor), while Triumph sells their version of ADO74 called the Toledo as a “premium” 3-door-only supermini with the rationale being that Triumph did not want to taint its upmarket image by making use of the smaller budget / mainstream ADO88, even if the latter was more spacious and had better packaging than the larger ADO74.


ADO16 – 1100/1300: BMC’s version would evolve into the alternate Nomad powered by alternate A/B-Series engines with an appearance resembling the Michelotti-styled Austin Apache and Austin Victoria as well as the real-life Morris Nomad, while LMC’s version would evolve into the Manx (ADO22) and be powered by A/E-Series or Morris OHV/E-Series engines.

BMC’s version would be replaced by the alternate Allegro, while LMC’s version would be replaced by the alternate Marina (with the Marina possessing a hatchback along the lines of the following hatchback Marina conversions - http://www.flickr.com/photos/leicester-vehicle-photography/6025394304/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/nakedcharlton/131531236/).


ADO17 – 1800/2200: BMC’s version would remain fwd, resemble the X6-based Vanden Plas 1800 prototype (http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/vanden-plas/x6-based-vanden-plas-1800/) prior to being rebodied into a production version of the Pininfarina 1800 where it was renamed the Austin Regent, while LMC’s version would be rwd (since the original prototype was rwd), largely resemble the X6 Austin Tasmin/Kimberly and be named the Morris Marshal from the start.

BMC’s rebodied Pininfarina-styled version world last until the mid-70s and replaced by the Austin/MG Magnette that is a fastback based on an enlarged Montego-based platform. - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/austin/maestromontego/concepts-and-prototypes-lm10-and-lm11-facelifts/ and http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/austin/maestromontego/concepts-and-prototypes-meet-the-lc-family/

LMC’s version would be replaced by the alternate Morris Princess / Innocenti Ambassador (ADO61) that would have not only included a hatchback from the outset (as in the real-life Ambassador), but also 5-door estate and 4-door saloon models. - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/concepts-and-prototypes-princess/ and http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/austin-morris/princessambassador/gallery-princess-countryman/


How the alternate BMC (by than renamed “Rover Group”) and alternate LMC (renamed something like “Jaguar-Triumph” or if merged with an Italian carmaker “Britalia Motors”), would evolve separately in the post-collaboration era from then on would be interesting to speculate on.
 
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There is practically near limitless possibilities on stillborn prototype cars though sticking with British cars for a minute, there were also plans to produce an Austin-Healey 4000 powered by a 4.0 Rolls-Royce FB60 6-cylinder capable of putting out around 175-270 / 300+ hp. Though a less well-known engine is the Daimler V8 from the Majestic Major that should have powered more cars and been used in a hypothetical rival to the AC Cobra. - http://www.ewilkins.com/wilko/ah4000.htm

Funny enough, I was reading up on the stillborn 3rd generation Corvair clay models the other day in the following link that were planned to be produced without the flat-6. Fwiw, if the upcoming Smart Forfour / Renault Twingo is any indication, we might be seeing the rear-engined rwd configuration becoming more common in small cars (due to the trend of downsizing engines, reducing weight and safety regulations). - http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/tag/xp-892/

Are you referring to this unsanctioned CX prototype? Definitely sad, especially since Peugeot fired any Citroen designer that dared to produce quirky Citroens. - http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/projet-e/projet-e.html

I agree with you on the Ford Pinto that should have received the 2.3 Turbo, despite being born here in the UK. Another issue though is the over-strict and seemingly pointless emissions standards that sapped the power from US market cars, just imagine for example a Pinto with a 2.8 Cologne V6 that like in the European Ford Capri produced 132-160 hp instead of 90-103 hp in the US.


From what I've read up on the net, carmakers behind the Iron Curtain also had countless modern potentially world-beating prototypes that were not produced due to lack of cash and being under Communist rule.

The saddest of all the Eastern Bloc / Soviet carmakers was Tatra that would have probably taken the fight to Western carmakers in some scenario where Czechoslovakia remained a capitialist country or divided like Germany was post-WW2 with a capitialist Czech Republic and a communist-ruled Slovakia.



(How the heck did I miss this?????)

I'm about to go to bed, but I must express extreme agreeitude about your post.

I have never seen the stuff about the 3rd gen Corvair before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.

Sigh.

Wow.


SIGH!


They're freaking swell.

Pondering a decade full of suave compact sporting cars made by American companies available second-hand at extremely reasonable prices... And that's just for starters. :D
 
(How the heck did I miss this?????)

I'm about to go to bed, but I must express extreme agreeitude about your post.

I have never seen the stuff about the 3rd gen Corvair before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow.

Sigh.

Wow.


SIGH!


They're freaking swell.

Pondering a decade full of suave compact sporting cars made by American companies available second-hand at extremely reasonable prices... And that's just for starters. :D

You welcome

Even though they were considering dropping the Flat-6 engine for the 3rd Generation Corvair, it would be interesting to see if the Flat-6 could have been developed further like Porsche did in OTL with their Flat-6 while interestingly enough Volkswagen itself developed a stillborn 3.2 (165 hp) / 3.7 (180 hp) water-cooled fuel-injected Flat-6 engine called the VW Oettinger WBX6 for the Volkswagen T3.

Another stillborn rear-engined rwd car that happened to bare a passing similarity to the Corvair was the Rootes Swallow prototype, that was to have been the Imp's bigger brother had the Imp been a success and was to be powered by a 1250cc OHC based on the Coverntry Climax 1220cc FWE (from the original Lotus Elite) as well as spawn 1500cc and 1750cc versions prior to the project being abandoned and replaced by the more conventional Rootes Arrow / Hillman Hunter. - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/hillman-hunter-the-swallow-project/ and http://www.imps4ever.info/protos/swallow.html

swallow_02.jpg

swallow_01.jpg
 
TheMann said:
The Mini being sold in Japan by Honda is a neat idea, though, as Honda withdrew from the kei car market in 1974 and the Mini could easily be used as a replacement for the Honda Z using the 550cc engine from the Z.
I've always loved the kei.:cool::cool: I do think a 550cc Mini is pretty underpowered, tho, unless you really bump the power/torque. I suppose you could go with really, really steep gearing...7:1 final drive?:eek:

I'm also wondering why the Stag, frex, even happens, given there are so many other changes. Yes, the market niche is there, but the exact conditions & design team wouldn't be--would they? Or are you presuming more "inertia" than I'm seeing?
TheMann said:
I'm not sure what to do about this
What about licencing a small BMC product? Something to replace the Oxford copy being built locally by Hindustan?
TheMann said:
Austin 4000 sports car (with the Rolls-Royce-developed engine)
Not being able to keep all the players straight, here,:eek: I'm asking myself why they don't use the Buick-based 215/3500. Add an all-new 4v head & EFI, & get a rocket...:cool:
 
I've always loved the kei.:cool::cool: I do think a 550cc Mini is pretty underpowered, tho, unless you really bump the power/torque. I suppose you could go with really, really steep gearing...7:1 final drive?:eek:

....

Not being able to keep all the players straight, here,:eek: I'm asking myself why they don't use the Buick-based 215/3500. Add an all-new 4v head & EFI, & get a rocket...:cool:

The 2-cylinder A-Series would likely be underpowered though if it were sold from when the Mini was launched it would at least be consistent with the Kei-Cars of the period (from the 360cc era to the 550cc era), while developments to the 2-cylinder A-Series have the potential to make it a competent K-Car against its Japanese rivals.

If not, the original Mini could receive suitable K-Car engines from either a development of the 9X/DX, 3-cylinder E-Series (with a potential 12v version) and 3-cylinder K-Series engines (the later is assuming the Mini is still being sold into the 80s and 90s as in OTL).


As for putting the ex-Buick Rover V8 into the Austin-Healey, I think it was due to a sensibly developed Rover V8 not being available at the time though Donald Healey himself apparently had a thing that he wouldn't use American engines.

It would interesting though to see a scenario where a Rover V8-powered Austin-Healey would do battle with a Daimler V8-powered rival from LMC / Leyland, in a UK version of the US Ford vs GM and Australian Ford vs Holden V8 rivalries.
 
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Another interesting WI British car is a production version of the 3-door Maestro prototype, though I personally like the following Stephen Harper Styling Sketches that an alternate BMC / Leyland with cash would be able to easily develop rather than the stillborn "body in white" shown in the following link. - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/car.../concepts-and-prototypes-three-door-maestros/

lm10dev_06.jpg

lm10dev_08.jpg

lm10dev_09.jpg


Of the 3 Maestro (3-door) styling sketches above, the last sketch looks the most appealing out of all of them.
 
Yeah the Maestro's another big lost opportunity. Had BLMC not gone bankrupt it wouldn't have been caught in "development hell" for the best part of a decade and it would have replaced the Maxi in the late 1970's. With more cash to hand it could have been developed into a full range of body styles like the Escort and Golf and could have been a big success. :(
 
Yeah the Maestro's another big lost opportunity. Had BLMC not gone bankrupt it wouldn't have been caught in "development hell" for the best part of a decade and it would have replaced the Maxi in the late 1970's. With more cash to hand it could have been developed into a full range of body styles like the Escort and Golf and could have been a big success. :(


I agree with you on developing the alternate Maestro (and Montego) from its launch in say 1976/77 into full range of bodystyles (along with 4WD), which seemed to be the direction they were heading in real-life based on stillborn prototypes/sketches of the Maestro/Montego that never entered production due to a lack of cash.


Another criticism that could be rectified is a more diverse range of engines compared to the OTL Maestro/Montego, with petrols initially ranging from a 65-72 hp 1.1 (1097cc) or 75-84 hp 1.3 (1275cc) A-Series OHC, 85-103 hp 1.6 S-Series and 105-116 hp 1.8 or 128 hp 2.0 O-Series to a 152-160 hp O-Series Turbo. While diesels would range from 60-66 hp 1.35TD or 70-73 hp 1.6D and 81-84 hp 1.6TD S-Series to a 88-102 hp 2.0 O-Series diesel "Perkins Prima".

The alternate Maestro would be rebodied in the early/mid-80s (1982-1985/6) to resemble a possible downsized version of the Montego-based AR16/AR17 "Rover 600 (or Rover 600)" prior to being replaced by the alternate Rover 300 / 400 R8 (or Rover 200 / 400 in OTL) in a more equal collaboration with Honda, with the 400 R8 rivalling the Vauxhall Belmont / Ford Orion instead of the Vauxhall Cavalier / Ford Sierra that would rival AR16/AR17.

The AR6 "Rover 100" Metro-replacement would possess the styling theme of the R6X, as would a stylish shooting-brake 3-door hatch sitting above the Rover 100 (AR6) called the Rover 200 R7 that is basically a production version of the R7 prototype, which was based on a shortened R8 platform.

During the collaboration with Honda prior to the alternate Metro being replaced by the Rover 100 (AR6), a possible replacement of the Mini (9X) that was never pursued known as HD14 was briefly considered which some speculate was either a Roverized Honda City / Jazz (AA) or Roverized Honda Today powered by 3-cylinder versions of the K-Series engines.

See following link for development codes - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/development-codes/
 
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Are you referring to this unsanctioned CX prototype? Definitely sad, especially since Peugeot fired any Citroen designer that dared to produce quirky Citroens. - http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/projet-e/projet-e.html


What a great idea! Let's take over a renowned company with a strong reputation and then destroy the exact thing that made it special. And fire anyone who tries to do anything contrary to that.

It's like when Macy's recently took over some prominent regional department store chains (Strawbridges in Philly, for example), and then renamed the things Macy's... Like, damn, you know, if people shopping at those stores for generations had wanted to go to Macy's, well, they would have gone to Macy's, right? Never mind that the value of what they bought took decades and decades to build up and otherwise they could just go ahead and open up new stores from scratch without having to ARGHGHGHGHGH. Don't mind me... I'm the one closing my eyes and imagining the joy of buying a 1992 Corvair Monza fastback with mostly highway mileage for the price of a (slightly younger) Honda Civic. :D


I agree with you on the Ford Pinto that should have received the 2.3 Turbo, despite being born here in the UK. Another issue though is the over-strict and seemingly pointless emissions standards that sapped the power from US market cars, just imagine for example a Pinto with a 2.8 Cologne V6 that like in the European Ford Capri produced 132-160 hp instead of 90-103 hp in the US.

The good news is that within a decade (or two), the solution --computer-controlled fuel-injection and so on-- ended up being very nice for performance and efficiency, too.

Also, arguably, there is something to be said for being on a highway and not feeling like you're going to choke from the fumes of the cars around you... When I was in Israel about 20-odd years ago, we were on a trip on a highway with a lot of traffic and I was very surprised by the strong fumes I smelled.

Yes, American cars were kind of castrated for a while, but they seem to have recovered, I think.

The saddest of all the Eastern Bloc / Soviet carmakers was Tatra that would have probably taken the fight to Western carmakers in some scenario where Czechoslovakia remained a capitialist country or divided like Germany was post-WW2 with a capitialist Czech Republic and a communist-ruled Slovakia.

Tatra! The anti-Nazi assassin! :)
 
I've always loved the kei.:cool::cool: I do think a 550cc Mini is pretty underpowered, tho, unless you really bump the power/torque. I suppose you could go with really, really steep gearing...7:1 final drive?:eek:

At 7:1 final drive the top speed of a four-speed Mini would be about 50 mph, which is too little even for a Kei car. Japan's fuel grades are quite high-octane (Japanese regular gas is about 95 octane by North American standards), so you could make that 550cc engine have a bit more beans simply through tuning it for the better fuel.

I'm also wondering why the Stag, frex, even happens, given there are so many other changes. Yes, the market niche is there, but the exact conditions & design team wouldn't be--would they? Or are you presuming more "inertia" than I'm seeing?

The Stag I think is more likely to succeed here than in a BL world or one where LMC owns Jaguar, simply because it would be Triumph's range-topper. It makes less sense within BL because of the Triumph TR8 and Jaguar XK-E and XJS, but as LMC here has neither of those in-house competitors its more likely to work. As for the development team, the Stag's development began well before the merger and Triumph is on the Leyland side of the equation, so I would suspect that much of the Stag's development team would still be there.

What about licencing a small BMC product? Something to replace the Oxford copy being built locally by Hindustan?

The newer cars are all more complex to build than the Morris Oxford, unless you count the Minor which is no real improvement. I'm not sure if BMC has a small car product other than the Mini which is usable in India - the biggest shock of BL was all of the Leyland guys coming into the scene and finding out how many obsolete designs that BMC had. Hindustan could conceivably move up to the ADO16 to replace the Oxford design as the ADO16 is phased out in the late 60s, but would India at the time do this is one question, and whether its able to be successful is another.

Not being able to keep all the players straight, here,:eek: I'm asking myself why they don't use the Buick-based 215/3500. Add an all-new 4v head & EFI, & get a rocket...:cool:

Austin, Morris, MG, Mini and Austin-Healey are part of BMC, whereas Rover, Triumph and Land Rover were on the Leyland side, thus the Austin-Healey 4000 couldn't use the Rover V8, as they'd have to buy it from their archrival, which is isn't gonna happen, not to mention putting a four-valve head on a car designed for pushrods is going to require extensive re-engineering and EFI isn't an option in the late 1960s.
 
What a great idea! Let's take over a renowned company with a strong reputation and then destroy the exact thing that made it special. And fire anyone who tries to do anything contrary to that.

....

The good news is that within a decade (or two), the solution --computer-controlled fuel-injection and so on-- ended up being very nice for performance and efficiency, too.

Also, arguably, there is something to be said for being on a highway and not feeling like you're going to choke from the fumes of the cars around you... When I was in Israel about 20-odd years ago, we were on a trip on a highway with a lot of traffic and I was very surprised by the strong fumes I smelled.

Yes, American cars were kind of castrated for a while, but they seem to have recovered, I think.



Tatra! The anti-Nazi assassin! :)

To be fair to Peugeot, Citroen were in bad shape at the time though a successful PSA where Citroen retains its quirkiness would be an interesting idea to explore.



While I am all for nations deciding their own motoring laws and standards, the issue I have American emissions standards is that they take an even more strict approach than in Europe with the US at the time ending up receiving cars with lower outputs compared to those same models sold outside of the US. For someone such as myself based in Europe, I cannot imagine a US version of the mk1 Golf GTi having to make do with a 78 hp 1.6 (originally 108 hp) or a 90 hp 1.8 (originally 112 hp).

Put it this way, if emissions are a great concern than would it not be better to have nations in an alternate setting adopt similar / common emissions standards around that time?

The same also applies to a certain extent with small fuel-efficient cars, despite the fact different nations have different habits / priorities when it comes to cars, though I guess outside of North America the rest of the world could in an alternate setting adopt a standardized variation of Japan's Kei Car Class with the engine size being increased to around 750-770cc and maximum output being arond 80-85 hp (up from 660cc and 64 hp in OTL).

While there are many (read: countless) WI cars I'd love to drive/own such as a BMW M3 Compact, Irmscher Manta Omega, Dodge Copperhead Coupe or Peugeot 205 GTi16, I personally dream of driving a WI GTi or Cooper S production version of the rear-engined rwd 1997 Rover Mini Spiritual concept, powered by a turbocharged 12v 3-cylinder K-Series engine either as a 80 hp 750-770cc (K-Car) or a 105-110 hp 990cc (non-K-Car).
 

NothingNow

Banned
Iacocca was keen for partnership with Honda at Ford, likely he tries that in the Uk as well. Maybe the Civic is rebranded as an Austin car while Honda sells Minis Converted to 550cc as a Kei car with with the change in '75, I think?

The Mini might still be too big to be a kei car. The estate and comercial versions are 100mm too long, although it is the perfect width for post '75 kei class. It'd need the engine from a CB500 or CB500 though, and the transmission from an Acty.

That said, a Kei-class Mini would be a hot seller in japan, and the powertrain would probably do well in France, and other places.
 
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