A very late Byzantine resurgance

The latest possible POD would have to be a Nicaean state that becomes more Turkified. A state that is able to do for Orthodoxy what the house of Osman did for Islam.

Perhaps a half Turkish, half Anatolian Greek general that understands both sides is able to (with quite a bit of luck) bring both sides together as the Ottomans were able to. A later reconquest of Constantinople seems smart, as well as a greater emphasis on absorbing and co-opting the Turks (or Turkified Byzantines, depending on your viewpoint) into the empire.
 
The latest possible POD would have to be a Nicaean state that becomes more Turkified. A state that is able to do for Orthodoxy what the house of Osman did for Islam.

Perhaps a half Turkish, half Anatolian Greek general that understands both sides is able to (with quite a bit of luck) bring both sides together as the Ottomans were able to. A later reconquest of Constantinople seems smart, as well as a greater emphasis on absorbing and co-opting the Turks (or Turkified Byzantines, depending on your viewpoint) into the empire.
That sounds like a route to a fast exit. Policies geared towards Turkish stuff in general are aimed away from any areas which might provide actual economic returns. The Anatolian plateau's stockherders aren't exactly the stuff of fiscal prosperity. So Nikaia tries this, maybe even has success with it, but Thessalonike or the Latins are fighting over the useful territory, and whichever of them ends up with it is bound to be more powerful than Nikaia will be. Nasty hole they'd have dug themselves in that case.
 
So Nikaia tries this, maybe even has success with it, but Thessalonike or the Latins are fighting over the useful territory, and whichever of them ends up with it is bound to be more powerful than Nikaia will be. Nasty hole they'd have dug themselves in that case.

That runs quite counter to what actually happened. The Balkans seemed to be very, erm, Balkanized until a strong outside power showed up to unite the fragments into a greater whole.

Granted, the Balkans might have been becoming more and more prosperous, densely populated and such, but then again, that didn't seem to stop the Turks from destroying local Balkan despotates and princedoms with great ease.
 
That runs quite counter to what actually happened. The Balkans seemed to be very, erm, Balkanized until a strong outside power showed up to unite the fragments into a greater whole.

Granted, the Balkans might have been becoming more and more prosperous, densely populated and such, but then again, that didn't seem to stop the Turks from destroying local Balkan despotates and princedoms with great ease.
Actually, I'd say it confirms it. When the Balkans finally were united, they were united by a power - the Ottomans, obviously - that controlled less Asiatic territory than Nikaia had under the rule of Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes. The Ottomans were clearly a Balkans-first power in those early stages, and rightly so. It was then, on the strength of controlling the prosperous regions of Thrace and Macedonia that they were able to turn against the Aydinogullari, Germiyanogullari, Eretnaogullari, Candarogullari, and Karamanogullari, defeat them, and unite Anatolia.
 
That runs quite counter to what actually happened. The Balkans seemed to be very, erm, Balkanized until a strong outside power showed up to unite the fragments into a greater whole.

Granted, the Balkans might have been becoming more and more prosperous, densely populated and such, but then again, that didn't seem to stop the Turks from destroying local Balkan despotates and princedoms with great ease.

Eh, it depends on the time-frame. Bulgaria, Serbia and Byzantium were all once upon a time the dominant countries on the peninsula.

If Serbian empire hadn't collapsed into princedoms after Dusan's death in 1355 or if Byzantium had recovered after 1204, the Ottomans never would have conquered the Balkans.
 
However after 1300s-340s Constantinople is doomed to fall... Any TLs after these dates simply delay the inevitable...

But really, over the grand scope of 700 years of history any city is very very very likely to fall at least once in its history.
Was Orthodox power in the region especially doomed after this period? I don't see it that way, I doubt it would ever regain what it once was (not any time soon anyway...) but divide the muslims as well as the christians and either has just as good a chance of pulling a ottoman style rise and winning out or holding onto their independence.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
The Palaiologoi under Kantakouzenos enjoyed good relations with the Aydinids. Avoid the civil war of the '40s and/or the Smyrniote Crusades and you could perhaps see the Aydinid beys challenge Osmanli supremacy in Anatolia.
 
I wasn't thinking about Timur being more successful actually, I was thinking more after that, perhaps with PODs towards the end of it.
I was thinking the Timurids keep their ravaging to Anatolia whilst the Ottomans scrap amongst themselves and their empire breaks apart leaving Byzantium free to 1: Not be conquered by a big neighbour with designs on Constantinople and 2: Maybe take back a few cities from an ex-Ottoman faction or two.


As to Constantinople being a village....on that I am really really unsure. I've read some sources which seem to suggest it had become rather Gormenghastesque, an empty shell with only isolated sections inhabited. Other sources meanwhile seem to suggest it remained a pretty significant and important place despite virtually being a city state.


And yeah, Timur was pretty calculating in deciding where to slaughter for maximum effect. However..assuming we're going down the route of him getting into Europe...the question then is....would the value of the prestige of holding the seat of the Roman empire outweigh the terror torching it would cause?


It would only delay the downfall- not necessarily.
I don't see it being too likely that the Byzanytines would ever become the major power they once were again (but...stranger things have happened- as mentioned with the Ottomans and then with the initial Arab break out for two relevant examples), but...if things stay fragmented in the area I could well see them managing to secure a solid little Greek state.
Even once that is done of course they're not out of the woods. All sorts of things could happen, some ATL Napoleon-analogue could well come along and crush them or Hungary could fill the void as some big all conquering empire or anything. But even if it only delays the fall a century or so the changes could be pretty major. Perhaps I've mistitled this thread here, the major effects will be more from no ottomans than from Byzantium hanging on; the latter just has a coolness factor.
They could do a lot more than that.Manuel Palaeologos had already recaptured Adrianoupolis and the forts of the area west of Constantinople and part of Macedonia;if Timur anihilates the Turks after the battle of Ancara and comes to an agreement with the Byzantines....many things can happen;let's not forget,that Peloponnese was Greek as well as many islands,they could unite with the Despotate of Epirus and that of Pontus. Action could then be taken in Anatolia or the Balcans,to...eradicate the Turks...
 
Actually, I'd say it confirms it. When the Balkans finally were united, they were united by a power - the Ottomans, obviously - that controlled less Asiatic territory than Nikaia had under the rule of Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes. The Ottomans were clearly a Balkans-first power in those early stages, and rightly so. It was then, on the strength of controlling the prosperous regions of Thrace and Macedonia that they were able to turn against the Aydinogullari, Germiyanogullari, Eretnaogullari, Candarogullari, and Karamanogullari, defeat them, and unite Anatolia.
I agree...
 
Asia Minor is already largely Turkified at this time period. It would be very difficult for a Byzantine government to attempt a resettlement and reconquest.
Not really!despite what you and possibly others believe,the Ottomans did not exercise systematic Turkification at that time;even later,with the system of yeni sheri(yenitsars) the Christian element remain very numerous and powerful-please note the privileges granted in reality to the patriarch of Constantinople by Mohamet II,and the fact that during WWI and sortly after until 1922,there were 403 Orthodox bishoprics numbering
about two million people and those are facts encompassing the Greek Orthodox population of the coast of western Asia Minor;what about the Greeks of Pontus?,where do you suppose all these people came from if they didn't descend from the Greeks of 14th and 15th centuries?
 
That runs quite counter to what actually happened. The Balkans seemed to be very, erm, Balkanized until a strong outside power showed up to unite the fragments into a greater whole.

Granted, the Balkans might have been becoming more and more prosperous, densely populated and such, but then again, that didn't seem to stop the Turks from destroying local Balkan despotates and princedoms with great ease.
I might add that Turks destroyed the powerful European armies with the same ease,a bit later-see Mohatc(1526)
 
They could do a lot more than that.Manuel Palaeologos had already recaptured Adrianoupolis and the forts of the area west of Constantinople and part of Macedonia;if Timur anihilates the Turks after the battle of Ancara and comes to an agreement with the Byzantines....many things can happen;let's not forget,that Peloponnese was Greek as well as many islands,they could unite with the Despotate of Epirus and that of Pontus. Action could then be taken in Anatolia or the Balcans,to...eradicate the Turks...

Here you're getting into far fetched stuff though.
Could this happen, could we get a big Byzantine popping up again? Yes.
Is it likely? No.
Sure, there are a lot of Greeks in Anatolia still, but there are also a lot of Turks. Even if the Ottomans are utterly destroyed the Turks will just end up joining up with new leaders and getting rid of them all...that would be a long difficult process and one which I just don't see the Byzantines doing, genocide tended not to be the done thing. Sure, maybe they could be 'tamed' and brought into the empire as citizens but...again...that will be a long and difficult process.
At most I'd see there being some sort of big Greece covering OTL, Greece, Albania, Macedonia, southern Bulgaria, European Turkey and large parts of the Turkish coasts.
All the while the Byzantines won't exactly have their European flank clear. The Venetians and others would be a constant threat to them.
 
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