A Very Different England

20 September 1066: Tostig Godwinson and Harald Hardrada defeat the English at Fulford. Harold II hears of this and travels north quickly to engage Tostig and Harald.

24 September 1066: Scouts warn the invading army of Harold's rapid advance. Tostig and Harald lay a trap at Stamford Bridge.

25 September 1066: Battle of Stamford Bridge. The Norwegian army engages the English on the eastern end of the bridge. The English easily fall for the bait. Then, disaster strikes. Harald sends a large number of his best troops across an old Roman bridge a mile to the south, shattering the weak English contingent assigned to protect the bridge, and march north, straight into the rear of the English army. By the time Harold realizes what he has fallen into, he is surrounded and under heavy attack from both sides. The Norwegians quickly fight their way into the center and to Harold. The English army is completely destroyed, with 14,400 out of Harold's original 15,000 killed, Harold among them. The Norwegian army marches south.

26 September 1066: William II of Normandy lands in southern England.

29 September 1066: Harald and Tostig reach London and declare Tostig Godwinson to be King Tostig I of England. Knowing that Tostig will be merely a puppet of Harald, the Witenagamot protests, but is quickly silenced.

12 October 1066: Battle of Hastings. William of Normandy attacks Tostig's army, but both an infantry and cavalry charge are unsuccessful at breaching the English shield wall. The Breton division on Williams's left is completely shattered by the elite Norwegian contingents in Tostig's army, and the English surge into the side and rear of William's army. William is killed instantly by a lucky stone-throw by an English infantryman, which breaks his neck. The Norman army collapses, fleeing toward their ships, and are harried all the way by the English, losing 17,500 of their original 22,000, while Tostig loses a mere 6,300 of his original 20,000.

17 October 1066: The shattered remains of the Norman army sail away from England. Upon arriving back in Cherbourg the following day, they are met by Williams's 12-year-old son Robert. Upon finding out about his father's death in battle, Robert becomes Duke Robert II of Normandy.

9 November 1066: Tostig invades Normandy. The Norman army, still reeling after Hastings, is easily defeated at the Battle of Caen. Robert II is deposed and imprisoned in England, and Tostig declares himself Duke of Normandy.

June 1068: A rebellion in Cherbourg is crushed by Tostig.

March 1072: Tostig I dies. Harald Hardrada declares himself King Harald I of England and Duke Harald I of Normandy. He now rules a vast empire, consisting of Norway, England, and Normandy. He starts shooting covetous glances at the other kingdoms in the British Isles and Scandinavia...

Any ideas?
 
I'd say Harald and Tostig invading Normandy is a stretch and France wouldn't be to keen on letting a foreign power take rightful land, you could at least have them take England.
 
This is a wank theirs no way te Norse could beat the Normans after their march south and battle with the English and what ever gurillas they meet as well as their not as good supply

Probably split the county in two like originally suggested
 
How could it be impossible for Harald and Tostig to beat both William and Harold, I mean didn't Harold almost beat the Normans at Hastings, and that was after had to beat Harald's army even without their armor.
 
How could it be impossible for Harald and Tostig to beat both William and Harold, I mean didn't Harold almost beat the Normans at Hastings, and that was after had to beat Harald's army even without their armor.

Yeah it's probably just me but I think they would split the country like Norway wanted rather than fight a war
 
I doubt that Harald III of Norway would wish to invade Normandy, as this would incur the belligerence of the rest of the Franks. Normandy, although like most duchies, is practically autonomous, it is still a vassal of the King of the Franks. And, despite past conflicts between Duke William II and King Henry I of France, the then-late father to the under-aged King Philip I, and the Normans' enmity with the Angevins from their last war with each other in the 1050's, they would likely come to Normandy's aid if King Harald of Norway was to pull a stunt like that. Not to mention that Baldwin V, who ruled the formidable County of Flanders, was not only William of Normandy's father-in-law, but was also the co-regent of France for his nephew, Philip I. And frankly, Harald Hardrada simply has no reason to invade Normandy anyway.
 
Last edited:
Where are you getting those numbers from? Hardrada's army was about 9000 strong at max. If you're assuming he's going to gain control of the remnants of Harold's army in the space of a week...that seems unlikely.

Invading Normandy is ASB.

You're also forgetting Sweyn of Denmark, who claimed England himself and would probably invade, or at least make things very difficult for Harald at home. The two men were not fond of one another.

Even if Harald defeats every obstacle, he's just going to be Canute Mk 2. England and Norway will be divided when he dies, his sons will fight over them, and the Saxons will probably revolt with Scottish aid (as the Scottish king was married to Margaret of Wessex).
 
The Second Normandy War, 1072-73

April 1072: The last pretense of Norman independence from Norway has now been lost. Harald Hardrada of Norway is Duke Harald I of Normandy. Consequently, the French dukes and princes and such begin preparations for an invasion of Normandy.

2 June 1072: The war begins. Northeastern Normandy (OTL department of Seine-Maritime) is mostly quickly overrun. However, Le Havre and Rouen continue to resist. Tostig's walls around both cities keep them holding out. In response, Harald declares Normandy to be "a province of the Kingdom of Norway".

5 June 1072: Southeastern Normandy (OTL Eure department) is invaded. Évreux manages to hold out due to the walls Tostig built around the town, but elsewhere, Harald is losing ground.

6 June 1072: The greatest offensive yet is launched in southwestern Normandy, along the axis of OTL Manche department. However, here Harald has the most success. The French are held up by a long belt of fortifications extending from the Orne, south of Vire, to the sea just south of Avranches.

12 June 1072: The French reach the sea at Honfleur.

13 June 1072: The Duchy of Normandy is reestablished, with Richard, son of William II and younger brother of Robert II, as its Duke. It is a much truncated form, consisting of the land making up OTL Seine-Maritime and Eure departments, plus OTL Calvados department east of the Orne. The rest of the conquered territories will become the personal property of the King of France.

4 July 1072: French forces reach the Orne. They are held up by the Norwegian fortifications on the river's west bank.

27 July 1072: Alençon falls.

13 September 1072: After months of fighting, French forces break through the fortifications in southwestern Normandy. Although they sustain appalling losses, they are able to force Harald's army back to its secondary fortifications, one extending from opposite St-Lô to the sea due west of Coutances, and one extending from Caen to OTL Gold Beach.

28 October 1072: A pair of final concerted French offensives to the northeast and northwest of Caen finally succeed in putting the city under seige.

4 November 1072: Évreux surrenders.

10 December 1072: Rouen's walls are breached. However, this is not quite the end for the city, as Rouen's defenders give the French a first taste of urban warfare.

27 December 1072: The bloody battle for Rouen finally ends. Some surrender. The rest are dead.

1 February 1073: A combined English and Norwegian fleet carrying supplies to Caen is ambushed off Étretat with the help of heavy fog and almost totally destroyed.

31 March 1073: With the defenders of Caen starving and running low on weapons, the French manage to land troops on the west bank of the Orne.

4 April 1073: Caen surrenders. Although literally scraping the bottom of the barrel for both food, water, and munitions, the defenders of the city do their best to give the French another taste of urban warfare. The French, to use a serious understatement, do not like another taste, not after Rouen.

12 April 1073: With all the troops attacking Caen now attacking the western coastal pocket instead, the French manage to break in from St-Lô, forcing the Norwegians to withdraw to yet another line, this one from OTL Utah Beach essentially due west across the peninsula. The French, having lost thousands more troops breaking through the second line of fortifications, are not sure whether they can break through this third one. They are sure, however, that if they do manage to break through it, they will have to face yet another bloodbath in the streets of Cherbourg.

26 April 1073: Harald and Philip meet in Paris to discuss terms.

14 May 1073: The Treaty of Paris is signed. It is uti possidetis; Harald keeps Le Havre and the northwestern peninsula of Normandy, which he still holds, but France and Normandy get everything else.
 
April 1072: The last pretense of Norman independence from Norway has now been lost. Harald Hardrada of Norway is Duke Harald I of Normandy. Consequently, the French dukes and princes and such begin preparations for an invasion of Normandy.

2 June 1072: The war begins. Northeastern Normandy (OTL department of Seine-Maritime) is mostly quickly overrun. However, Le Havre and Rouen continue to resist. Tostig's walls around both cities keep them holding out. In response, Harald declares Normandy to be "a province of the Kingdom of Norway".

5 June 1072: Southeastern Normandy (OTL Eure department) is invaded. Évreux manages to hold out due to the walls Tostig built around the town, but elsewhere, Harald is losing ground.

6 June 1072: The greatest offensive yet is launched in southwestern Normandy, along the axis of OTL Manche department. However, here Harald has the most success. The French are held up by a long belt of fortifications extending from the Orne, south of Vire, to the sea just south of Avranches.

12 June 1072: The French reach the sea at Honfleur.

13 June 1072: The Duchy of Normandy is reestablished, with Richard, son of William II and younger brother of Robert II, as its Duke. It is a much truncated form, consisting of the land making up OTL Seine-Maritime and Eure departments, plus OTL Calvados department east of the Orne. The rest of the conquered territories will become the personal property of the King of France.

4 July 1072: French forces reach the Orne. They are held up by the Norwegian fortifications on the river's west bank.

27 July 1072: Alençon falls.

13 September 1072: After months of fighting, French forces break through the fortifications in southwestern Normandy. Although they sustain appalling losses, they are able to force Harald's army back to its secondary fortifications, one extending from opposite St-Lô to the sea due west of Coutances, and one extending from Caen to OTL Gold Beach.

28 October 1072: A pair of final concerted French offensives to the northeast and northwest of Caen finally succeed in putting the city under seige.

4 November 1072: Évreux surrenders.

10 December 1072: Rouen's walls are breached. However, this is not quite the end for the city, as Rouen's defenders give the French a first taste of urban warfare.

27 December 1072: The bloody battle for Rouen finally ends. Some surrender. The rest are dead.

1 February 1073: A combined English and Norwegian fleet carrying supplies to Caen is ambushed off Étretat with the help of heavy fog and almost totally destroyed.

31 March 1073: With the defenders of Caen starving and running low on weapons, the French manage to land troops on the west bank of the Orne.

4 April 1073: Caen surrenders. Although literally scraping the bottom of the barrel for both food, water, and munitions, the defenders of the city do their best to give the French another taste of urban warfare. The French, to use a serious understatement, do not like another taste, not after Rouen.

12 April 1073: With all the troops attacking Caen now attacking the western coastal pocket instead, the French manage to break in from St-Lô, forcing the Norwegians to withdraw to yet another line, this one from OTL Utah Beach essentially due west across the peninsula. The French, having lost thousands more troops breaking through the second line of fortifications, are not sure whether they can break through this third one. They are sure, however, that if they do manage to break through it, they will have to face yet another bloodbath in the streets of Cherbourg.

26 April 1073: Harald and Philip meet in Paris to discuss terms.

14 May 1073: The Treaty of Paris is signed. It is uti possidetis; Harald keeps Le Havre and the northwestern peninsula of Normandy, which he still holds, but France and Normandy get everything else.

Eh.....What?!? Again, Normandy would not be invaded by Norway. Unless Norway was willing to get bogged down fighting the French.
 
Last edited:
Ok, there are some parts of this I could imagine and some bits that are a bit more of a stretch to be honest.

A Norwegian victory at an alternative to Stamford Bridge is far from impossible. Indeed, the Norwegians did win an earlier battle at Fulford against a Saxon force under Edwin and Morcar, the two Earls in charge of the North.

The Norwegians had 15,000 men supposedly - based on 50 men per ship. I find it hard to believe Harold's force could be so badly mauled but it's certainly not inconceivable Hardrada could win a decisive victory and Harold could be dead or a prisoner.

The problem with the scenario from then on is that it is predicated on the assumption that the surviving Saxon leadership would prefer to be ruled by Tostig than by William of Normandy. The thing is, that wasn't true.

Many leading Saxons had been opposed to Godwin and had either lived in Normandy or come under Norman influence during the Danish period prior to 1042 and during the reign of Edward the Confessor. Indeed, in OTL, a number had been quite ready to support William once Harold Godwinson was out of the way.

With Harold dead in the North, it's possible William would have found the road to London clear and more than a few Saxons ready to aid him against Hardrada.

Hardrada meanwhile is enjoying York, England's second city at the time. and while he would have become aware in time of William's invasion, the big question is what would he do about it?

Notions of William and Hardrada's armies doing battle over the corpse of Saxon England are all fine but unrealistic. Past history with the Saxons and the Danes offers a clue as to the future - a division of England between a Norman-dominated south and west and a Norwegian-dominated north and east.

The Danelaw revisited - don't forget also that England in 1066 isn't an impoverished backwater - why do you think so many people were interested in taking control? England was arguably the most prosperous country in non-Arab Europe - there was plenty of trade through Flanders and English silver was widely used as currency.

So, Tostig rules the north as a client of Hardrada, who can use this conquest to strengthen his hand in his long-running struggle with Denmark.

In the south, William rules Wessex with his group of knights carving up the mini-kingdom between them.

Can this last? I suspect not.
 
Even if Harald defeats every obstacle, he's just going to be Canute Mk 2. England and Norway will be divided when he dies, his sons will fight over them, and the Saxons will probably revolt with Scottish aid (as the Scottish king was married to Margaret of Wessex).


Not yet she isn't. That only happened later.

TTL she probably gets married off to Olaf Kyrre.
 
Notions of William and Hardrada's armies doing battle over the corpse of Saxon England are all fine but unrealistic. Past history with the Saxons and the Danes offers a clue as to the future - a division of England between a Norman-dominated south and west and a Norwegian-dominated north and east.
 
Not yet she isn't. That only happened later.

TTL she probably gets married off to Olaf Kyrre.

Only if Harald captures her and she represents a better deal than the daughter of Sweyn Estridsen. Sweyn and Harald had only recently (1064) agreed a cease-fire and cementing peace with Denmark may seem more attractive than marrying into the old English dynasty.

If Harald doesn't capture her, well, she could just as easily end up in Scotland as she did in OTL. It's a much closer sanctuary than the continent after all.
 
Top