Pangur
Donor
Might be any need for that. Mass graves are rather hard to hide. Locals will know about them and once one is found then folk will start taking and the others are found
"A Very British Transition" - A Post-Junta Britain TL
- Thread starter powerab
- Start date
What was Junta Britain's relationship like with Idi Amin's Uganda?
IOTL they started out reasonably friendly owning to Amin being ex British Army and having a good relationship with many British army officers and diplomats. As time went on and Amin became a murderous tyrant (the expulsion of the Asian Ugandans, many of whom ended up in Britain and the stories they brought with them didn't exactly help Amins imagine in the eyes of the British Government) this relationship deteriorated to the point that Britain apparently seriously considered assassinating him and gave various forms of support to Tanzania in the war that led to Amin's overthrow.
Would the Junta have taken a more hardliners approach with Amin to the point of actually assassinating him or maybe even intervening in their former colony militarily?
Or perhaps might they have found a kindred spirit in Amin in relation to some of the more tyrannical aspects of their respective regime's?
IOTL they started out reasonably friendly owning to Amin being ex British Army and having a good relationship with many British army officers and diplomats. As time went on and Amin became a murderous tyrant (the expulsion of the Asian Ugandans, many of whom ended up in Britain and the stories they brought with them didn't exactly help Amins imagine in the eyes of the British Government) this relationship deteriorated to the point that Britain apparently seriously considered assassinating him and gave various forms of support to Tanzania in the war that led to Amin's overthrow.
Would the Junta have taken a more hardliners approach with Amin to the point of actually assassinating him or maybe even intervening in their former colony militarily?
Or perhaps might they have found a kindred spirit in Amin in relation to some of the more tyrannical aspects of their respective regime's?
That isn't mentioning how many might be discovered on building sites. A lot of site managers hush up that kind of thing if they can and the staff obey because they want to keep their jobs.
Nah, that's just one of the three types of plague caused by Yersinia pestis - bubonic plague, pneumonic plag,e and ballistic plague.
Did they also train dogs to sexually assault women?
A quick google search reveals that Pinochet did some seriously messed up stuff to left wing people.
Relatively similar to OTL, if maybe a little softer. As in OTL the relationship would start out strong but would cool as Amin went off the deep end.
Britain did take some refugees from Uganda but its a lot less than OTL due to Britain being a less attractive place to emigrate, and the government generally being more hostile. The Junta did send most (around 13,000) to the Solomon Islands - another 6,000 settled on the mainland UK.
Relations with Amin were never as bad as they were in OTL, the Junta wouldn't try and assassinate Amin or intervene directly in Uganda. They would sell weapons to Tanzania and Uganda, with British mercenaries ending up on either side of the Uganda–Tanzania War.
Generally the Junta took a neutral position on Amin, he was far away and bought their guns, that was about it. The Junta were already ostracised so the outrage of the international community didn't bother them much
Mosley retired to France after the 1966 election after losing his deposit at the election. Whilst he supported the coup he made no attempt to return to the UK, instead focusing on European politics. Although some of his followers such as Jeffrey Hamm and Keith Thompson would play a role in the early days of Civil Assistance.
Nothing so ghastly, one does not air their dirty laundry in public like that.
There were never any Pinochet level atrocities, most of the Junta's crimes were done quietly, behind closed doors and in an incredibly boring fashion. Capture a SNLA fighter, rough him up in his cell until he has a sudden "heart attack", chuck him in a ditch.
Chapter 58: How do you do Fellow Dissidents?
Over a dozen new national papers would spring up after the fall of the Junta, all fighting for space
“During the transition, many papers reflecting a variety of orientations came into existence. Within a few months of the refounding of The Mirror, a new newspaper, the Guardian, was created. This new daily provided a liberal counterpoint to the social-democratic Mirror. Similar initiatives were launched on a provincial level, leading to a large expansion of the democratic press. The principal impact on the size of the reading audience, however, was limited. Much of the increase in circulation reflected the reading of several daily papers by an informed minority of the population. The new publications crowded established newspapers out of the market. Pro-Junta newspapers would suffer the most, especially the Spectator who fell from its position as the most read daily to 7th in circulation.” - The Media and Politics During the Transition, Lecture by Heinz Brandenburg, Cambridge University (2014)
In the aftermath of the Junta’s fall, old liberal newspapers were refounded and new left-wing media forms were established. Journalism in transition Britain was interesting, most journalists had been born after democracy had fallen, and had never seen a functioning media ecosystem. Most had spent their careers uncritically reprinting Government press releases and keeping their heads under the parapet. Even after the fall of the Junta, British journalism took a while to get going, there was no institutional memory of critical journalism, and all the publications that had survived the Junta naturally lent to the right. These establishment publications were, at best, suspicious of Britain’s new democracy - if not outright hostile. Britain’s journalists, the inventors of the printing press and mass media, had to start from scratch.
Under the direction of editor Janine Gibson, The Guardian, a middle-class centre left broadsheet had the strongest investigative reporting during the early days of the transition. They hired top talent from US and other anglosphere publications to fill in the gaps. The paper would make the scoop of a lifetime when it reported undercover police were infiltrating protest and left-wing groups, in a continuation of Mountbattenite policy. During the Junta years the Home Office established the “Information Commission '', a very polite British way of saying secret police. Unlike the paramilitary civil guard or the shadowy forces of the Security Services, the Information Commission would actively infiltrate dissident groups, gather information on those involved, and then report back to the security services for a quick arrest. They were an arm of the civilian police, rather than the security services or military.
British journalists still held the deferential attitudes towards authority of the 80s
The Information Commission had been kept in place by the Johnson administration, but further absorbed into national policing structures and placed under strict supervision. The transition government argued the Information Commission and it’s officers still played a vital role in preventing terrorism, and that commissioners would only be deployed against violent extremist groups. Whistle-blowers reported to the Guardian this was false and that Information Commissioners had infiltrated the Socialist Alternative and RISE, as well as the youth wing of the SDP. The Commission had not only targeted legitimate political organisations but also peaceful protest groups such as "Release!" - an animal rights group and "Earth First" -an environmentalist group.
“An Information Commissioner whistle-blower who lived undercover at the heart of the environmental movement has quit the Commission. IC Mark Kennedy, infiltrated dozens of protest groups including anti-racist campaigners and anarchists. This is despite the Information Commission officially ending infiltration of non-violent groups in 2005. Kennedy testified his activities went beyond those of a passive spy. Kennedy first adopted the fake identity Mark Stone in 2005, to disrupt the UK's peaceful movement to combat climate change. He grew long hair and sported earrings before going on to attend almost every major demonstration in the UK. He was issued with a fake passport and driving licence. Kennedy, who recently resigned from the Commission, is torn over his betrayal.” - Information Commissioner spied on green activists, Rob Evans, The Guardian (2011)
Leaked documents revealed Information Commissioners (all men) having sexual relations with and even fathering children with, unsuspecting activists, only to vanish without a trace once their assignments were complete. In some instances undercover commissioners rose to positions of prominence and even leadership in their organisation, going on to plan direct actions. Legal scholars argued that the Commissioners acted as provocateurs and any illegal actions involving Commissioners could be described as entrapment. Information Commissioners even appeared in courtrooms as their undercover personas and would take the opportunity to testify against their activists comrades, even directly lying to judges and members of the jury as to their real identities.
Women were overwhelmingly targeted during infiltration operations
In response to the escalating situation, Justice Secretary David Miliband announced he would be creating a new body, the Police Conduct Office. The PCO would have the responsibility for oversight of British policy, independent from the security services and the political establishment. Alison Saunders, Council of Prosecutions chairwoman and highest prosecutor in the land was appointed to head up the new PCO service. Saunder’s appointment instantly drew controversy, with critics arguing her role as a prosecutor meant she was inseparably intertwined with the police, many of her cases could have been carried by evidence from Information Commissioners. Socialist Alternative Deputy Leader Diane Abbott publicly demanded a political appointment to head the Office but Secretary Miliband denied this, arguing the Office’s head had to be impartial and non-political.
The investigation would be arduous and it would be many years until the Information Commissions’ Victims got any sort of closure or restitution but it did mark a turning point. Whilst many government institutions seemed to have moved on from the Junta, the police hadn’t. The Commission’s Scandal was the latest example of abuses of power and other dodgy action taken by the old bill. The Rozzers had gained some prestige in defeating the coup of 2009, it had been riot police, rather than army units, that had surrounded Parliament and eventually taken back the Commons, but with the Commission scandal a lot of that good will had faded away. Unlike the military, the police had never truly been one with the Junta, always remaining half and half-out. Now with the Junta gone and democracy in vogue the police had to chose which side they were on.
“Speaking to the camera, each victim remembers the torture they were subjected to in Scotland Yard, which was used as a detention centre under the dictatorship. They recall each torture by name – the wheel, the operating room. But even more harrowing than their accounts of being broken are confessions from victims who disclosed the names of their accomplices and are still unable to forgive themselves 50 years on. All feel their voices have been silenced for the sake of a smooth transition from the Mountbatten dictatorship to democracy. This is the silence that the new documentary “Frank” by director Ken Loach hopes to break. The film puts a spotlight on one of the dictatorship’s most notorious Information Commissioners, Frank Pulley.” - New documentary breaks silence on Junta-era cop’s culture of torture, Ryan Parry, Daily Mirror (2009)
The police had a less than glorious history during the Junta
Nick P
Donor
Makes you wonder about other interrogation centres around the UK. Plenty of old forts and military bases that are remote and secure and out of earshot of the public. Be worth looking at the grounds around them for mass graves.
I can see a new New Scotland Yard opening up earlier to draw a line behind the atrocities and put some distance between the future of UK Policing and what went on back then.
I can see a new New Scotland Yard opening up earlier to draw a line behind the atrocities and put some distance between the future of UK Policing and what went on back then.
I'm not sure if it's been covered yet but what happened to Harold Wilson and the members of his government as a result of the coup?
Was the military united behind mountbatten in his overthrow of the government or were there elements who refused to go along with it resisted in some way?
Was there ever any risk of a counter coup?
Was the military united behind mountbatten in his overthrow of the government or were there elements who refused to go along with it resisted in some way?
Was there ever any risk of a counter coup?
I try not to go into too much detail at the risk of becoming ASB - but here are the spark notes:
- Wilson took his own life on the day of the coup, most senior Cabinet members, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore etc were arrested and held in Belmarsh as political prisoners. Jim Callaghan was the most senior Cabinet member to escape abroad and set up a government-in-exile in Dublin, later moving to Paris
- Almost the entire senior military establishment was behind the coup, anyone who wasn't was quickly removed in the weeks leading up to the coup or on the day
- There was some risk of the coup collapsing, the unions marshalled a general strike and the Junta faced international condemnations, this first few years were by far the most turbulent
Deleted member 169412
What did the monarchy do?
You'd assume it would be far easier for the Queen to sack Wilson and make Mountbatten PM (as the governor general of Australia did in the 70's) than for Mountbatten to carry out a coup.
The police getting focus is a really interesting idea, given the understandable attention paid to the army. Mark Kennedy can't stop getting involved in undercover stuff and cocking it up, can he? The activists are owed some form of justice and that it took so long to get there is indicative of the problems of the UK right now.
The Monarchy privately supported the coup but mostly kept their head down until the dust settled and the Mountbattenites were firmly in control.
They could, but that would still leave him dealing with a strong Labour majority in Parliament and would break the facade of the monarchy being a-political (also it wouldn't make for a very interesting story)
Deleted member 169412
True. To be fair I'd enjoy reading a timeline where the monarchy and Parliament are at loggerheads but it would probably be too dry for most people's tastes.
Doesn't surprise me. I take it Lizzie didn't want to risk her throne by allowing a second coup (which would inevitably lead to a left-wing counter coup)?
Chapter 59: Representation with Taxation
The ECB maintained iron discipline for eurozone members
“The UK’s short-term borrowing costs jumped Tuesday as eurozone markets still fret about a potential Greek debt restructuring. The British Treasury sold 2.78 billion euros of short-term bills with the average 3-month yield jumping to 1.371 percent. The British auctions offered scant evidence that London has succeeded in decoupling itself from the debt woes of weaker euro zone partners. “These yield levels are still currently more cause for concern rather than outright alarm. But, there is little scope for further such funding costs before the market begins to spook,” said strategist Richard McGuire. Market concerns about British finances are focused on the cost of recapitalising regional savings banks and coping with the impact of a real estate crash.” - British borrowing costs jump, Paul Day, Reuters (2011)
With the bailout of Greece imminent and other major EU countries on the brink, the European Banking Authority announced they would “test” 90 financial institutions across Europe to see if they had enough capital to survive a crisis. Of the eight banks that failed these capital tests, seven were based in the UK. In a scaving report the Banking Authority reported that British banks were too dependent on “troubled government bonds”. Despite the 140 billion euros having been pumped into British banks since the financial crisis, the investigation reported that British banks were “woefully undercapitalised”. With British banking in such a weak position, and the Greek bailout threatening a mass eurozone collapse, British finance was in an incredibly precarious position.
Chancellor Alan Sugar announced new legislation in the face of the Banking Authorities’ Report. All banks operating in the United Kingdom would be required to comply with a core capital ratio of 8%, to be held as part of a “rainy day fund” should things get worse. Sugar made clear he expected the banks to raise this money themselves, but announced he would present a “Banking Reconstruction Incentive” (BRI) that would provide capital to British banks struggling to reach the 8% threshold as an absolute last resort. Economists predicted the BRI would cost between two and nine billion Euros, in reality it ended up costing the treasury nearly 17 billion euros as dozens of British banks called on emergency support.
The Treasury underestimated Britain's lack of capital
To pay for this sudden new expense (and to keep the socialists on side), Prime Minister Alan Johnson dipped a bit into his old populist streak by announcing a wealth tax. Brits with 700,000 euros of assets in real estate – excluding their main home – as well as in stocks and bank deposits would have to pay the new tax. However, transition Britain long had a tax evasion problem, especially among the ultra-wealthy elite. Despite London’s skylines being dotted with luxury penthouses, less than 10,000 people had annual taxable income above 600,000 euros in 2010. This would lead to the wealth tax producing a poultry billion euros to combat the hungry deficit.
“In 1990, there were twelve OECD countries, all in Europe, that levied individual net wealth taxes. But, most of them repealed their wealth taxes in the 1990s and 2000s, including Austria, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands. Iceland, which had abolished its wealth tax in 2006, reintroduced it as a temporary ‘emergency’ measure between 2010 and 2014. Britain, which had introduced a 100% wealth tax reduction in 2008, reinstated the wealth tax in 2011. The reinstatement of the wealth tax was planned to be temporary but has been maintained since. France was the last country to repeal its wealth tax in 2018, replacing it with a tax on high-value immovable property. In 2020, Norway, Britain, Spain and Switzerland were the only OECD countries that still levied individual net wealth taxes.” - Why do Wealth Taxes Fail? Lecture by Sarah Perret, King’s College London (2020)
Several weeks after the wealth tax crashed and burned, the SDP government announced it would also be raising VAT, going from 18% to 21%. Unlike the wealth-tax, VAT was famously regressive, being applied to the value of goods rather than the wealth of the consumer, especially hitting the SDP’s base of working class and union voters. Leader of the Opposition William Hague slammed the VAT raise as “anti-business, anti-worker and anti-British” in the House of Commons. The VAT changes were every political leader’s nightmare, a direct, undeniable tax-rise on the voting-age population and Johnson’s already dire polling continued to slip.
Sugar's rage at the new taxes was a poorly kept secret
The final measure taken to try and bring Britain closer to the black was announced by Education Secretary Peter Mandelson. The UK had always had free university tuition, under the Junta only those of the right stock, with the right political opinions, were allowed to pursue higher education, keeping the number of university students low. After democracy came to Britannia, the number of students exploded. The UK’s student population went from a few hundred thousands to over two million. Mandelson informed the Commons that the situation wasn’t tenable, and thus the Government would be ending free tuition, allowing universities to charge students for the first time, with a cap of 2,500 euros a year. Both VAT and tuition fees were massively unpopular, but the ship was sinking and a hole needed to be plugged, so the government trudged on with the reforms, raising around 13 billion euros and helping to stabilise the nation’s books. The United Kingdom wasn’t in great shape, but she still wasn’t Greece.
Still it highlighted the disconnect in British society, the Junta was gone, but strict class barriers still remained. The silver-spooned etonians who had stood with the Junta still controlled much of Britain’s wealth and paid very little tax to show for it. It made Britain not only a weaker society, but a weaker economy. The downturn in Britain's housing market hadn’t helped, with millionaires hiding money in failed new towns or unfinished housing developments. Stronger European economies like France and Germany had cracked down on tax evasion during the financial crisis, cracking down on off-shore accounts. Whilst British territories such as Gibraltar and Jersey formed a pan-European hub for tax dodgers. The Juntistas had never left, they’d just taken their booty to the Channel Islands.
“The offshore world is all around us. More than half of world trade passes, at least on paper, through tax havens. More than half of all banking assets and a third of foreign direct investment are routed offshore. An impression has been created in sections of the world's media, that the offshore system has been dismantled, or at least tamed. In fact quite the opposite has happened. The offshore system is in very rude health — and growing fast. It is no coincidence that London is the center of the most important part of the global offshore system. The City's offshore network has two inner rings – Britain's crown dependencies and its overseas territories. These rings are controlled by Britain, and combine futuristic offshore finance with Junta-era politics.” - The truth about tax havens, Private Eye (2011)
The Juntistas had hid vast sums of wealth in offshore bank accounts
Just to clarify, The Guardian would count as the revival of a previous newspaper.
What we know in OTL as The Guardian was The Manchester Guardian from 1921 to 1959 so The Guardian would have existed before the coup but, like the Mirror and most other media, would have been banned and only revived with the fall of the Junta.
Looking at other national newspapers, I can imagine The Times, The Telegraph and the Mail existing under the Junta - possibly the Express as well. The Sun was a left-of-centre paper until Murdoch came along but that was in 1970s OTL so in the Junta TL Murdoch doesn't come to the UK.
It's worth mentioning the print unions were very powerful in OTL and would have been at the forefront of Junta retaliation with the Unions suppressed and the print workers forced back to work on pain of dismissal or imprisonment.
The Sporting Life as a horse racing paper would survive as it was the favourite paper of the Queen Mother.
Among local newspapers, some would survive and flourish, others would not. Apolitical local papers reporting just local news might be left untouched by the Junta - one of the developments of the 1970s in OTL was the evolution of the local newspaper as primarily an advertising piece with very little news. I suspect the Junta wouldn't be too bothered by these either.
What we know in OTL as The Guardian was The Manchester Guardian from 1921 to 1959 so The Guardian would have existed before the coup but, like the Mirror and most other media, would have been banned and only revived with the fall of the Junta.
Looking at other national newspapers, I can imagine The Times, The Telegraph and the Mail existing under the Junta - possibly the Express as well. The Sun was a left-of-centre paper until Murdoch came along but that was in 1970s OTL so in the Junta TL Murdoch doesn't come to the UK.
It's worth mentioning the print unions were very powerful in OTL and would have been at the forefront of Junta retaliation with the Unions suppressed and the print workers forced back to work on pain of dismissal or imprisonment.
The Sporting Life as a horse racing paper would survive as it was the favourite paper of the Queen Mother.
Among local newspapers, some would survive and flourish, others would not. Apolitical local papers reporting just local news might be left untouched by the Junta - one of the developments of the 1970s in OTL was the evolution of the local newspaper as primarily an advertising piece with very little news. I suspect the Junta wouldn't be too bothered by these either.