Franco still marginalised women and eliminated civil marriage and divorce, rolling back the social changes of the Republic.
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"A Very British Transition" - A Post-Junta Britain TL
- Thread starter powerab
- Start date
Kinnock was continued working as a teacher whilst supporting non-violent Welsh dissident groups on the side. He never did anything big enough to get the attention of the authorities so apart from the occasional wack from a police officer at a protest he had a fairly peaceful Junta.
Thatcher was a sitting Tory MP and was became a National MP after the coup. She served as Transport Minister under Mountbatten and then Education and then Business Minister under Hill-Norton. Generally associated with the hardline faction of the Party. She retired from politics in the early 90s.
Francoist Spain favoured natalism while keeping women in the kitchen.
Thanks @powerab for the kind word and response.
I struggle with the notion there would be such a strong pro-Junta sentiment so soon after the restoration of democracy. There does tend to be a "wistful" recollection of such things some years later but the turning of the page would be quite popular.
I'm curious with how the Junta managed to inculcate such a strong aversion to democracy amongst younger people - were newspapers and radio strictly controlled?
Even so, it's not North Korea, nor, I imagine, the German Democratic Republic. Presumably British people were able to travel abroad ? It's hard to isolate Britain from the rest of the world and to be fair you don't suggest Mountbatten or Hill-Norton advocating a form of British Juche.
I'm not sure how the continuing provision of state control in the economy would look especially at a time when the direction of travel elsewhere was so different. Would there still be a British Rail, a British Leyland, a GPO?
What about the cinema? Would American movies be allowed - how does a film like "Saturday Night Fever" resonate to a British audience in mid-70s Junta-run Britain?
What about the arts in general ?
Sport - I could imagine an earlier return of a South African team to England and I imagine Australia and New Zealand would be welcome (that's a thought - how would the Gough Whitlam business develop?) but what about India, Pakistan or the West Indies? Elsewhere, I suspect the top footballers would head to Europe as they did in OTL to some extent - does Hillsborough still happen, presumably Heysel doesn't? What about football hooliganism in general?
I struggle with the notion there would be such a strong pro-Junta sentiment so soon after the restoration of democracy. There does tend to be a "wistful" recollection of such things some years later but the turning of the page would be quite popular.
I'm curious with how the Junta managed to inculcate such a strong aversion to democracy amongst younger people - were newspapers and radio strictly controlled?
Even so, it's not North Korea, nor, I imagine, the German Democratic Republic. Presumably British people were able to travel abroad ? It's hard to isolate Britain from the rest of the world and to be fair you don't suggest Mountbatten or Hill-Norton advocating a form of British Juche.
I'm not sure how the continuing provision of state control in the economy would look especially at a time when the direction of travel elsewhere was so different. Would there still be a British Rail, a British Leyland, a GPO?
What about the cinema? Would American movies be allowed - how does a film like "Saturday Night Fever" resonate to a British audience in mid-70s Junta-run Britain?
What about the arts in general ?
Sport - I could imagine an earlier return of a South African team to England and I imagine Australia and New Zealand would be welcome (that's a thought - how would the Gough Whitlam business develop?) but what about India, Pakistan or the West Indies? Elsewhere, I suspect the top footballers would head to Europe as they did in OTL to some extent - does Hillsborough still happen, presumably Heysel doesn't? What about football hooliganism in general?
If I'm reading it right, based on the Southern European dictatorships IOTL (I'm thinking Greece here, as I was somewhat more familiar with it in my reading), citizens would probably still could travel abroad (they basically needed emigration badly as a way to provide extra revenue for the government, hence why so many worked abroad) and no British Chuch'e would be needed (yes, I'm spelling that Korean word old-school style). In this case, there may be some monitoring by the intelligence services to make sure its citizens didn't stray too far from what was acceptable (i.e. no repeats of Orlando Letelier or Kostas Georgakis or anything like that) unless they really wanted to truly defect. Nor would Britain itself be truly isolated - indeed, this was even true in Greece under the dictatorship, though in the range of, say, film the BBFC (which I'm assuming got nationalized) may probably curb some of the perceived excesses, as IOTL.
Otherwise - @powerab , I have to say I've been reading this so far, and I'm very much impressed. Please do continue with it.
To be honest, considering what people have said and the points raised, it's probably better to use some minor handwavium via some natalism and 'poorer = more kids' to make Britain's population roughly the same or perhaps higher.
Certainly immigration and population growth from 2005 onwards (and really from the 70s onwards as well) should be radically different TTL.
Certainly immigration and population growth from 2005 onwards (and really from the 70s onwards as well) should be radically different TTL.
Lots less and probably a much more hardline stance on illegal immigration
Go on TV and say "Mountbatten is a twat and he doesn't have my support, stop this right now."
The military swears an oath to the Queen, not to a has-been who gave away India and his wife - both to Nehru, as it happened. If the palace had made clear their opposition to the coup, most of the soldiers would have stood down. A coup could only have succeeded with HM's support, or at least silence.
The basic premise of the TL is implausible as it is.
That doesn't mean we can't enjoy reading it.
Besides, an "oath to the Queen" doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.
I'm going off of the Spanish coup attempt in 1980. Juan Carlos told them to stand down and they did. The Queen is far more respected in the UK than Juan Carlos ever was in Spain. If the coup succeeds, I'm going to assume its because the palace allowed it to. In which case she would lose most of the world's respect.
Edit: come to think of it, David Windsor might have agreed to a coup, were he and Wallis not exiled in France
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Britain's colonies fall around the same time, whilst Mountbatten was more inclined to fight for the colonies, with the instability at home and international condemnation abroad the Junta doesn't have the political capital to hold onto their overseas colonies.
What about the Falklands? Did Argentina invade them as IOTL or having a military government in London deterred her? If yes, UK was able to fight back or the international isolation crippled his response? Or again, did this response more aggressive even then Thatcher’s one, maybe following the worst “Sink-Belgrano-Bomb-Buenos Aires” Thatcherian instincts? I would suppose the war didn’t happen or was a British victory due the assumption that a humiliating defeat would buy little time to the Junta while it endures until 2004.
How do you address the First Lord? Is it "Your Lordship" or "Mr First Lord?"
And more to the point, if it's the former, and you have an American president like Jimmy Carter who probably doesn't appreciate Britain's democracy being overturned by a coup, is it possible an unfriendly American president might tweak the nose the first Lord by calling him "Mr First Lord?"
And more to the point, if it's the former, and you have an American president like Jimmy Carter who probably doesn't appreciate Britain's democracy being overturned by a coup, is it possible an unfriendly American president might tweak the nose the first Lord by calling him "Mr First Lord?"
I wonder what was the junta's relationship to the Commonwealth & NATO like? Also, what happened to its Overseas Territories? Did they lose more or kept more than OTL?
Very interesting and well written timeline, well done on the opening context evoking the same feelings I felt when reading A Very British Coup. I’ll admit though it’s upsetting to see Wiltshire seemingly partitioned between Somerset, Gloucestershire and perhaps Hampshire. I can’t imagine the victims of these province mergers would be very happy about being split between other counties!